On 5 Dec 1998, Mahaksa dasa wrote:

> Haribol, just a short post to continue
> discussion. A fellow keeps saying that
> Srila Prabhupada orders us to cooperate.
> This is fact, without doing so, all we do
> is fight. But His order was also in effect
> when He was present, and all we did was
> fight, even so offensively in His face.

> I appreciate the order as given, yet He did
> not order us to submit to unbearable
> dictatorships.

Under the regime of God and the guru, the rajarsi or saintly king, who represents God, dictates the order of the Supreme Controller. In that sense, he is a dictator.

> Too many folks think that they are Srila
> Prabhupada, arm themselves with His
> quotations, and strangle everyone with how
> they interpret.

Srila Prabhupada has ordered us not to interpret. Why do you ignore and neglect this order, despite it being presented to you several times, and then beg us not to present the quotes again?

> VAD is ideal, true, there was real
> potential in the early days. VAD begins
> with cow protection,

Srila Prabhupada said that it begins with Krsna's system of dividing society into FOUR orders. This is recorded in the book called Conversations With Srila Prabhupada. A copy of this conversation with Harikesa Prabhu has also been previously presented to you.

> yet farms were sold and cows sent to
> slaughter because a few decided that money
> was better spent on lavish city temples

In this connection Srila Prabhupada has stated that for ourselves we would be happy and satisfied if we simply resided in grass huts, but if we did, he asked, then who would come? He therefore ordered that very opulent temples be established to attract the minds of the materialists, and also said that fifty percent of the accumulated wealth should be spent on printing books and that the other fifty percent should be spent for expenditures, especially in establishing centers all over the world. He also added that the mangers of the Krsna consciousness movement should be extremely cautious with regard to this point, otherwise money will be the cause of lamentation, illusion, fear, anger, material attachment, material poverty and unnecessary hard work, and that whatever money is collected should be spent for Krsna and not a farthing for sense gratification. (Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 7, Ch. 13 TEXT 34] PURPORT)

> and advertizement of pseudo-gurus.

The real question is whether or not a guru is bona fide. If so, the guru should be treated as good as God. The varnasrama system of dharma or occupational duty is so designed, that no one can occupy a post without being qualified, because the ksatriya administration, under the direction and supervision of God, the guru, the vaisnavas, and the brahmanas, sees to it that everyone is properly engaged in their respective positions, in accordance with their qualifications.

> Those who overtalk about instituting VAD are
> those who see themselves as brahmana or
> gunslinger Ksatriyas,

Srila Prabhupada has stated that one does not appoint oneself a brahmana or ksatriya etc. Everyone must be tested to see which education and engagement is most suitable for the individual and therefore the most beneficial for society at large.

> And of course, cow slaughter money was
> spent on acquisition of Uzis and AKs for
> the thugs who think they were appointed
> ksatriyas.

Srila Prabhupada stated, that ksatriyas must be trained to fight with weapons of the modern day. He also stated, that mysticism will be used. In a conversation with "Srila" Ramesvara, he said, that this science, is in fact, not lost, but rather, is still there in the Vedas, and that there will be those who will find it and become instrumental in using it for further development of our movement. In the following morning conversations and a quote from a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, Srila Prabhupada illustrates the difference between the bona fide, real ksatriya administrators and their demoniac counterparts or perverted reflections, who comprise the political and judicial branches of the modern governments, the military, the police forces and all the other sections of the present governments of this world, which are currently engaged in the mad pursuit of war weapon accumulation and stockpiling:

Morning Conversation, February 14, 1977, Mayapur:

Srila Prabhupada: And where is the kshatriya and brahmana?

Hari-sauri: Well, they're all giving stress to accumulation of weapons. They're all giving stress to...

Prabhupada: That is not kshatriya's business. That is... That is... No, that is described. Krishna said... He arranged the battlefield, because the kshatriyas, they became very powerful by individual military strength as it is now...

Hari-sauri: Accumulation.

Prabhupada: Ha. So Krishna arranged: "All right, you come together and finish yourselves." So this arrangement will be done that all atomic bomb will come in warfield-one, next, third war, finished. All these, all these demons will be finished. That is not kshatriya. This is demonic. Kshatriya's business is to see that the four orders of life are maintained properly, not increasing military strength only, overburdened. Everyone is spending 75% of the revenue for military. Huh? Paritranaya sadhunam vinashaya ca duskrtam. So they are demons. Why so much money should be spent for military? They are not kshatriyas. They are not kshatriyas. They are demons. So demons... As soon as there will be number of demons increased, there will be war and finish all.

Hari-sauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varnashrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...

Prabhupada: At least... At least... At least they will see, "This is the ideal."

Hari-sauri: Yes. Then if there is a war after that, it will be all right.

Prabhupada: At least ideal must be there. That we are doing.

Collected Lectures on Srimad-Bhagavatam Vol. 1 pg. 628:

Not that so-called brahmanas and so-called ksatriyas, they have no information of Visnu and they are declaring, "I am brahmana, I am ksatriya." They are called, according to sastra brahma-bandhu and dvija-bandhu.

> what about the belly and the legs.

Srila Prabhupada has often pointed out the importance of the entire [social] body. The following is an excerpt from a morning conversation which exemplifies this:

Morning Conversation, February 14, 1977, Mayapur:

Hari-sauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?

Prabhupada: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakara. We have to keep them in the right position.

Hari-sauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varnasrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.

Prabhupada: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.

Satsvarupa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupada said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the vaisya. But nothing else happened.

Prabhupada: Every business is important. Brahmana business is important, ksatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varnasrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the sudra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now-capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, "No. Simply the legs shall be taken care." What is called? Proly?

Hari-sauri: Proletariat.

Prabhupada: What is that proletariat?

Satsvarupa: The laborers.

Prabhupada: That's all. These rascals are giving stress on the legs. And the capitalists, they are giving stress on production.

Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 9, Ch. 15 TEXT 15]

PURPORT

In Kali-Yuga as stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (12.2.13) dasyu-prayesu rajasu: The ruling class (rajanya) will be no better than plunderers (dasyus) because the third class and fourth class men will monopolize the affairs of the government. . . . . monarchs have been replaced by the men of the mercantile and worker classes.

> Just an excuse to gain following and lord
> it over innocent people.

Saintly kings conquer, but don't "lord it over" anyone, what to speak of the "innocent" public. A king is supposed to be a servant of the people.

> VAD is important to maintain peaceful human
> society, but it is not the same as sanatana
> dharma.

Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 1, Ch. 19 TEXT 4]

PURPORT

The life of a human being is a chance to prepare oneself to go back to Godhead, or to get rid of the material existence, the repetition of birth and death. Thus in the system of varnasrama-dharma every man and woman is trained for this purpose. In other words the system of varnasrama-dharma is also known as sanatana-dharma, or the eternal occupation. The system of varnasrama-dharma prepares a man for going back to Godhead.

Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 7 pg. 300:

Srila Prabhupada: For the management of affairs we require to divide. Those who are fit for management and protection they should be trained as ksatriya . . . so in our society this division should be there.

BHAGAVAD-GITA 1.42

PURPORT

The four orders of human society, combined with family welfare activities as they are set forth by the institution of the sanatana-dharma or varnasrama-dharma, are designed to enable a human being to attain his ultimate salvation. Therefore the breaking of the sanatana-dharma tradition by irresponsible leaders of society brings about chaos in that society, and consequently people forget the aim of life-Visnu. Such leaders are called blind and persons who follow such leaders are called are sure to be lead into chaos.

Of course, peace, prosperity and happiness will inevitably be an obvious result of establishing the varnasrama system, however, there is much more to this daivi or divine system than that. For those who have not yet fully developed their Krsna consciousness [pure love of God] the introduction and establishment of varnasrama-dharma, "which is also known as sanatana-dharma," creates an ideal situation, that is much more conducive for spiritual advancement than any system of so-called organization there is, or has ever been in the history of all humanity. It also creates an ideal environment for those who have fully developed their Krsna consciousness to perform their respective engagements, or in other words, services to the Supreme Personality, Lord Sri Krsna.

> Haridas Thakur was outside VAD, but no one
> ever created is more in tune with sanatana
> dharma.

Srila Haridasa Thakura is a bona fide spiritual master, and therefore the leader of all varnas and asramas. He is also none other than Lord Brahma. It would behoove us not to try to imitate him.

> Srila Prabhupada recommends VAD,
> often and clear, but He also clearly
> translates the discussion between Ramananda
> Raya and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu which
> verifies that VAD is external, less
> important.

Regarding conclusion of the conversation you are referring to, Srila Prabhupada wrote the following purport, and made several statements which are recorded in the conversation located directly under the purport:

Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 4, Ch. 24 TEXT 53]

PURPORT

The conclusion is that if one is serious about liberation he should not only execute the occupational duties of varnasrama-dharma but should also engage in bhakti-yoga.

Room Conversation, February 14, 1977, Mayapur:

"Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced"

Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupada: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?

Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bahya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.

Satsvarupa: Varnasrama is not required.

Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, "I am not brahmana, I am not ksatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srstam. So we are Krsna..., preaching Krsna consciousness. It must be done.

Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.

Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.

Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who'll chant?

Satsvarupa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varnasrama. That's the easiest.

Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnasrama is not possible.

Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.

Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnasrama and like that.

Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakur to chant, it is not possible.

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakur. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya's chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

> VAD exists outside the realm of those who
> seriously desire to use the concept to
> cheat and exploit others.

Varnasrama-dharma is the solution that will solve the problem of cheaters and exploiters, because the bona fide ksatriya administration does not tolerate their nonsense.

> They can say "Prabhupada said" all they
> want, but many see through the scam as
> clear as they see through the water that
> runs down the drain. You have propensity
> to get your hands dirty and bring forth
> nice crops? You are vaisya, even without
> the permission with the VAD squad.

Everyone has to submit to the authority of the Supreme Personality and His representatives.

> You labor in the service of others, honest
> employment to support you family?

We are meant to be eternal servants of God [Lord Sri Krsna]. Jivera svarupa haya, krsnera-nitya-dasa. We are spirit souls, therefore we are not related to any material bodies. By serving God one automatically renders service to all others. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, therefore, because he is everywhere, everyone and everything is/and are a part of Him. He is the Complete Whole, and we are His minute parts and parcels. This point is explained thoroughly in the Sri Isopanisad and in the introduction to the Bhagavad-gita, wherein it is explained that just as all the leaves and branches of the entire tree are nourished by supplying water to the root or just as the entire body is nourished when the hand supplies food to the stomach, similarly when the Supreme Personality of Godhead becomes satisfied by the loving devotional service rendered, His parts and parcels who render the loving devotional service to Him also automatically become satisfied. So, the greatest welfare activity we can be engaged in for the service of others is preaching to them about their constitutional position in relationship with the Supreme and enlightening them about their eternal engagement in the service of the Lord, and therefore all other living entities, who are His minute parts and parcels. This is the best way to show your love for God and all his children. Because God [Lord Sri Krsna] is the Supreme Father of every living entity, we are all members of the same family. We are family, all my brothers and sisters, and me. This is why the Lord's prayer recorded in the Holy Bible, begins with the words, "OUR Father, who art in..." Now, simply because we, the embodied living entities, are not related to any material bodies, does not mean that we should not love the spirit souls within the bodies. We should love everyone, without any distinction, based on the external covering called the gross material body, and should hate not the sinner, but the sin.

> Sudra. Cops, soldiers, politicians?
> Ksatriyas. Teach the truth? Brahmana.
> Student under the guidance of a bonafide
> spiritual master? Brahmacari. Married
> under the yajna provided? Grhasta.
> Retired, living with wife or husband, yet
> undertaking vows for Bhakti's sake?
> Vanaprastha. Truely experiencing the rasa
> of dread and aghast that there is no
> question of returning to materialistic way
> of life? Sanyassi. No permission or
> authorized diploma needed, because if you
> simultaneously seriously engage in the
> sadhana bhakti process and gradually become
> Vaisnava and sincerely show respect and get
> along with other Vaisnavas, you are cent
> percent adhering to all of Srila
> Prabhupadas instructions.

> Hare Krsna, ys mahaksadasa

As stated previously, according to Srila Prabhupada, everybody must be tested by the Lord and His representative(s), to see which type of education and service engagement is most suitable for each and every individual personality. This is the only system of cooperation and organization that works, and therefore the only way the members of any society can "get along." It is also the only system which has proven to be successful, and the only system which produces substantial results, both "materially" and spiritually. Anybody who perfectly performs their ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, daivi varnasrama duty, ultimately, inevitably or immediately attains the same perfection as a brahminically engaged devotee, practicing or executing all the asrama, or spiritual duties of sadhana-bhakti, which are never restricted to any particular class of living entities. This is confirmed by the guru or spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession, which began with God [Lord Sri Krsna], the sastras or scriptures, and the sadhus or saints, who have regularly appeared all throughout history - causelessly, mercifully, munificently, magnanimously and kindly bestowing their blessings upon all who are suffering, conditioned, embodied living entities.

---------------------------------------------

Dear Prabhus

Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Have I committed any offenses,
taken any quotes out of context,
made any mistakes, and/or
done anything I shouldn't have?
If so, I'm sorry.

Aspiring to be the sincere
servant of the servant,

Yours Truly,
Gauranga Prema Dasa

Hare Krsna

HOME