> On 25 Nov 1998, Gauranga Prema Dasa wrote:
> > Reading and reciting, or in other words hearing
> > [sravanam] and chanting [kirtanam] the words of
> > the spiritual master, and in this way associating
> > with him and the entire disciplic succession, what
> > to speak of the Lord and all his devotees, purifies
> > and enlightens the practitioner about everything.
> Respectfully, I must disagree quite strongly. This
> statement makes a number of broad associative quantum
> leaps that leave us with everything non-different from
> everything else. But the problem is in thinking that
> recitation is kirtana. Kirtana means in full
> consciousness of the subject matter. Hearing
> means that we receive the subject matter
> into our hearts.
Dear Agrahya Prabhu
Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhu, where in the world did you learn such things? Our process is simple and sublime. Simply by sincerely and submissively offering aural reception with rapt attention to the the message recorded in the Maha Bhagavata book and the philosophy propounded by the Maha Bhagavata speaker, which includes the instruction to hear and chant the names and glories of the Supreme Personality and His devotees, without any any consideration of qualification, the said SPIRITUAL subject matter automatically penetrates the heart of the conditioned soul and thus one automatically attains perfection by becoming fully KRSNA conscious. This is the means to the end.
---------------------------------------------
Dear Prabhus
Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Have I committed any offenses,
taken any quotes out of context,
made any mistakes, and/or
done anything I shouldn't have?
If so, I'm sorry.
Aspiring to be the sincere
servant of the servant,
Yours Truly,
Gauranga Prema Dasa
Hare Krsna
On 3 Dec 1998, Agrahya dasa wrote:
> Dear Prabhus,
> Dandavat pranams. All glories to Sri Guru
> and Gauranga. All glories to Srila
> Prabhupada.
> I am not interested in beating others over
> the head with my opinion on the supreme
> importance of establishing Krishna-bhakti.
> I am more inclined to try to do it as best I
> can.
As often stated previously, we are not interested in any opinion other than that of the pure devotees in the line of disciplic succession. AS also stated previously "Doing it" means that you must follow the order of the spiritual master, who stated that varna and asrama are interrelated and that one is dependant on the other and who also wrote that varnasrama dharma is synonymous with sanatana dharma, the eternal occupation of the living entity... all the living entities. Please refer to to the previous posting which sites the example of several pure devotees who perform(ed) the duties of ksatriyas, for further clarification of this point.
> VAD is not a bad thing, as I have pointed
> out elsewhere.
Daivi varnasrama-dharma is the ONLY thing for anyone who is at least on the platform of a human being.
> Why not go and do it?
Srila Prabhupada has ORDERED *US* to cooperate.
> > and you believe that there any gurus who
> > are at least on the platform of brahmana?
> I keep asking you to name me qualified brahmanas. Now you
> ask a question in return. I am not talking about gurus, I
> am talking about a societal mass of brahmanas.
One cannot become a bona fide guru without being a vaisnava, and anyone who is a vaisnava is automatically understood to be a qualified brahmana, regardless of which occupational duty in one of the four orders or varnas that vaisnava performs. The vaisnava simply acts like a ksatriya, vaisya, sudra etc. As far as the necessity for the societal mass of brahmanas you mentioned is concerned, Srila Prabhupada felt that he had accomplished the completion of the first half of his mission, at least sufficiently enough to issue the order for his followers to do the second half of the work, which is to introduce and establish the varnasrama system, and which entails, "varnasrama-preaching".
> Now you are talking about ISKCON, in which nearly all
> gurus have some position.
Do you believe that a guru [the external manifestation of God and the sum total of all the demigods] should be on the GBC or ABOVE the GBC, as in the case of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Srila Prabhupada who was and verily IS, or at least is supposed to be?
> Brahmanas in VAD do not hold positions, but are recognized
> immediately by their guna and karma - quality and work.
Everyone must be classified and divided. And as stated previoulsy by Srila Prabhupada and me, the vaisnavas who are liberated, pure, fully Krsna conscious devotees, as described in scriptures like The Nectar of Devotion and the Bhagavad-gita as it is, must act like either a ksatriya, vaisya or sudra etc., unless there is a specific need for them to perform the duty of another [and that may only be done under the guidance of "the" bona fide guru or spiritual master], in order to set an example for the people in general.
> You're the one who wants VAD now.
Srila Prabhupada wants varnasrama-dharma to be established now. He stated that we will always try to introduce this system, and wrote about it in, at least practically, every one of his books which might I remind you are the lawbooks for the next approx. 9,500 years.
> So I think it's quite relevant for you.
Once again, we are not concerned with what anybody other than the pure devotee, thinks. Varnasrama-dharma, or in other words sanatana-dharma [the eternal occupational duty], is relevant for everybody.
> You seem to think there's a linear scale of
> qualification where a guru must be "at
> least" a brahmana.
The guru doesn't necessarily have to perform the duties of a brahmana, but must be a vaisnava, who as stated previously, is a brahmana, and is actually above all brahmanas.
> But when I speak about VAD I refer to
> brahmanas in an occupational way.
The ksatriya administrators,under the direction of the spiritual master must make divisions. They must decide who is fit for which education, training and engagement in one of the four varna or occupational duties. Srila Prabhupada has clearly stated that in any society, unless the division is there, there will be chaos, and that this is Maya. Just because they aren't being engaged properly, doesn't mean they don't exist. According to Srila Prabhupada, there are a sufficient number of brahmanas [who have already been trained and others who are fit to be trained and there are even those who will be fit to be trained] to establish varnasrama-dharma immediately. Everybody simply needs to be trained and/or engaged appropriately. The problem is that this is not happening so you don't know who is who. In one of his purports to a passage in the Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Prabhupada wrote, that at present, there are millions of liberated souls residing on this planet, therefore there is no scarcity of candidates for the brahminical order, what to speak of the others.
> Occupationally speaking, if you want VAD
> you'll do much better outside the ISKCON
> framework.
SRILA PRABHUPADA wants varnasrama-dharma *IN* ISKCON. He has repeatedly requested and even ORDERED that it be established "in each center" of "our society". And furthermore, he has stated, that in each center there should be a varnasrama college.
> The problem is this: VAD is not
> a system of government.
The varnasrama system encompasses THE system of government imparted by the Lord.
> It is not a system for controlling people,
> it is a system by which everyone can live
> harmoniously within religious guidelines.
> The ksatriyas and ultimately brahmanas are
> there NOT TO CONTROL others but to
> enforce when someone steps over the
> line.
It is the duty of a government established, controlled and directed by God and His representatives, which is therefore perfect, to see to it that everybody is appropriately engaged in whichever one of the four varnas is most suitable to each individuals nature, based on tendencies propensities, potentials, skills, qualities, psycho-physical make-up, nature and desires, directly or indirectly in the service of the Lord and His representatives, in the way that is most pleasing to them. Everyone must submit to the control of the Supreme Controller, who established this system. The representatives of God do not force them to worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but under God's direction, confirmed by the guru [spiritual master], the revealed scriptures [sastras], and the saints [or sadhus], do enforce the divine system of law, order and organization otherwise known as daivi varnasrama-dharma. In this system there is no unemployment and everyone is protected by the laws of God that govern the people, which are strictly enforced. For example, there is no theft in a society governed by God, because anyone caught stealing looses the hand that picked up anything which did not belong to them.
> In that sense it is far more libertarian
> (IMHO) than most VAD advocates would admit
> (libertarian does not mean anarchy, where
> any nonsense is tolerated)
Regarding your "humble opinion," please refer to the quotes from THE SCIENCE OF SELF REALIZATION which make it perfectly clear that only the "opinions" of the authorized representatives of the parampara, or disciplic succession which began with God, are important. We are at liberty to follow the laws of God. We are also at liberty to follow the four regulative principles of freedom. We do not have the right to violate the laws of God. He has kindly instructed us to organize society. We don't have the right to refuse to follow this instruction. Throughout history, there has never been, nor will there ever be, a system which is more beneficial for everybody, than the system imparted by God, and by God, were going to follow it... or else!
> This is precisely the problem with
> implementing VAD within the ISKCON
> framework. The ISKCON framework has grown
> toward centralized management and control.
> This is intended as an observation, not a
> criticism. Implementing VAD would require
> going somewhat in the opposite direction.
> It would require recognizing that
> INDIVIDUALS who are qualified have the
> capability to act independently.
No one is, or should be independent. Everyone is fully under the control of either the Lord's internal energy or His external energy. We are absolutely, completely dependent on His mercy. And no one should try to "act independently." Everyone has to accept some authority.
> If you've read Our Mission you may have some
> idea why this flies in the face of what is
> still the current managerial philosophy.
Everything I need to know is in Srila Prabhupada's books.
> > As for harmonizing apparent contradictions,
> > according to the quotes which have been
> > presented, we can simply understand that
> > all instructions of the mahabhagavata book
> > and scripture are to be followed, and that
> > there is no need for research work,
> > unnecessary interpretation, or any
> > whimsical participation on the part of
> > conditioned souls, in the matter of
> > presenting it, as it is.
> I fear you have misunderstood the point here.
> Interpretation is not required. Realization
> is required. Blind following is not helpful.
The instructions are clear, therefore there is no need for interpretation. By following these instructions we will get deeper and deeper realizations and if we don't follow these instructions we will simply fall down.
> > Srila Prabhupada has clearly stated that we
> > have brahmanas, and that the time to
> > establish varnasrama-dharma was yesterday,
> > therefore it is only due to disobedience,
> > neglect, foolishness, ignorance,
> > rebelliousness, cowardice an sheer
> > stupidity that success has not yet been
> > attained in this endeavor.
> There are many things that could be said in
> this connection. Yesterday, indeed, seems
> to have been the time for it, February 1977
> to be specific.
In the movie called, "The Final Lesson" Srila Prabhupada is seen instructing his disciples to establish varnasrama-dharma in the last days of his physical presence. And might I remind you, that Srila Prabhupada said we shall ALWAYS try to introduce, implement and establish this system.
> Recrimination is useless. We're in the here
> and now. Canakya says if you want to do one
> act by which the whole world will be
> conquered, control the mind around which the
> senses dance. Without pure Krishna
> consciousness, there can be no control of
> mind and senses. The proof of lack of sense
> control lies in years of illicit activities.
Anyone can attain perfection within a second providing he is willing, however no one can attain perfection or make any spiritual advancement without following the orders of guru and Gauranga.
> Yes, had VAD gotten started back then maybe
> not so many people would have been driven
> off, and there would at least be a favorable
> atmosphere to cultivate Krishna
> consciousness.
The is only one way were going to be able to create a favorable atmosphere for cultivating Krsna consciousness. We have follow the instructions of the guru who said, establish varnasrama-dharma.
> The point is, we can either work on
> atmosphere or deal with the totally
> essential business of getting our spiritual
> lives back on track.
The is only one way to deal with the totally essential business of getting our spiritual lives back on track. We have follow the instructions of the guru who said, establish varnasrama-dharma.
> I would suggest a more novel approach, like
> going out and establishing VAD.
Srila Prabhupada has given everyone a key to unlock the doors of Rama-rajya [The kingdom of God on earth]. He has given the order to cooperate, therefore there is only way to open "this door" and that is by cooperation.
> one needs to fully put oneself on the
> spiritual path and follow in the footsteps
> of the pure devotee.
This does not mean imitating. Srila Prabhupada accomplished the first half of his mission, which was to train a class of brahmanas, now it is up to us to follow his instructions to complete the second half of his mission and establish the divine varnasrama system.
> Using "don't think, just follow orders" as
> an excuse seems like a cop-out, to me.
I think we should follow the orders of the spiritual master.
> So Srila Prabhupada gave some instructions
> that could be followed - "then do
> varnasrama." That's not what he really
> wanted.
Who says that's not what he really wanted?
> My point is we should study his books, chant Hare
> Krishna, remain in the association of pure devotees,
> and don't fall down.
> If we practice Krishna consciousness the way we're
> supposed to, there will not be any falldown. There
> are numerous examples of this.
> That's all I have to say on the subject of VAD.
> Vaishnava dasanudas,
> Agrahya das
Srila Prabhupada does want varnasrama-dharma to be established. That's why he wrote so much about it in practically if not all of his books. The purpose of the varnasrama system is to turn a crude man into a pure devotee and prepare all of us for our eternal relationship with the Lord.
---------------------------------------------
Dear Prabhus
Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Have I committed any offenses,
taken any quotes out of context,
made any mistakes, and/or
done anything I shouldn't have?
If so, I'm sorry.
Aspiring to be the sincere
servant of the servant,
Yours Truly,
Gauranga Prema Dasa
Hare Krsna