> > The best, nay, only way, to associate with
> > the pure devotee is to follow his
> > instructions. Of course, there is vani,
> > and there is vapu, but we should know
> > which is the most important.
> This is an interesting statement. Many
> people have asserted that the concept of
> continued ritvik initiation with Srila
> Prabhupada as the sole initiator for all
> time is untenable. In my unchallenged essay
> "Ritvik is Authorized" I make the claim
> that to minimize sadhu-sanga or attempt to
> do away with it is effectively an attempt
> to amputate one of the five principal limbs
> of bhakti given by Mahaprabhu.
By approaching any pure devotee and inquiring submissively, this ritvik issue could be resolved immediately, that is, if we are willing to accept the vani or instructions of the pure devotee.
> Following the logic you present here, there
> is no need of association. One need only
> "follow orders" and all will be revealed.
By following orders, we are getting the association of the spiritual master or guru and Krsna or God as well. The main reason we approach the spiritual master is to receive instruction. Of course, there is also the rendering of personal service to spiritual master. This is another important way in which we can follow orders. Both types of association are important.
> I'd like to point out that Srila Prabhupada
> came here alone, by circumstance (and
> providential arrangement) not by choice.
> Furthermore, he was already acting on the
> liberated platform. But for us, service and
> association of advanced Vaishnavas is
> essential.
Does your usage of the word "us," mean that you believe there are no liberated souls living on this planet? In one of his purports to a verse in the Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Prabhupada wrote that there are millions of liberated souls on this planet.
Association with the pure devotee is not meant to be a sentimental activity, but rather a way in which we serve the guru or spiritual master and receive instructions or vani. We must approach the spiritual master, inquire submissively, and be prepared to follow all the instructions imparted.
> I had practically no direct association of
> Srila Prabhupada, only for a few days when
> I got harinama initiation. My association
> with Srila Prabhupada has come primarily
> through his books. But without question
> this process has been influenced or limited
> by association.
Srila Prabhupada is still here. As always, we can associate with Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and all the other pure devotees who have so mercifully appeared throughout history. Srila Prabhupada is not only there in his books, as you must know, he is also present in his murti form, his pictures, and did you know that he even sometimes appears in our dreams?
> This is not to overlook my basic contention
> that while there may have been many things
> pleasing to Srila Prabhupada, the movement
> did not develop in the overall direction it
> needed to. The biggest lack was
> sadhu-sanga.
Srila Prabhupada trained a class of brahmanas. There are brahmanas scattered everywhere. Now, they simply need to be organized.
> If you joined ISKCON when and
> where I did you might agree there was no
> dearth of following orders. But I claim
> that the society suffered massively from
> lack of sadhu-sanga. This was true even in
> the last few years Srila Prabhupada was
> present because he was made inaccessible to
> us "little devotees," and it was far, far
> more so after his departure.
He has, and always will be accessible to everyone.
> Our goal is not liberation.
When devotional service is executed properly, for those performing their respective engagements in the daivi varnasrama system, liberation becomes a by product. As you must surely know, there are different types of liberation. One can even become a gopi. Of course, our only goal, should be that we simply become engaged in the pure loving devotional service of the Lord, and this is executed properly by following the order of the spiritual master, who teaches us how to be engaged in our varna and asrama dharma, or in other words our sanatana [eternal] dharma or engagement.
> In closing, I'd like to point out that
> after Mahaprabhu rejected varnasrama
> varnasramacaravata, eho bahya) the next
> thing He rejected is karma-samarpana, or
> offering the results of one's work.
> There is a reason why Srila Prabhupada gave
> us Caitanya-caritamrita, NOD, NOI, and the
> Bhagavatam. We should understand the
> progressive values. VAD is good,
> karma-samarpana is better,
> jnana-misrita-bhakti is better,
> jnana-sunya-bhakti is better, etc. etc.
> This is my point. There is a progression
> and there is a path of progress. We should
> not remain kanistha-adhikari but should try
> to continue to make advancement in Krishna
> consciousness, otherwise we will have
> great difficulty.
Varnasrama-dharma is also known as sanatana-dharma or the eternal occupation. [SB 1.19.4 pp.]
Fortunate Souls pg. 477:
"But if we accept the principle of varna and asrama as they are recommended in the sastra, and if we push on the Krsna consciousness movement, and if we push on the Krsna consciousness movement, surely everyone will be engaged in his occupation. In Delhi, Nandaji said that immediately these things cannot be introduced, but I think it can be introduced immediately without any loss of time, provided you are serious about it."
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Prabhakar, May 31, 1975)
Room Conversation, February 14, 1977, Mayapur:
"Varnashrama System Must Be Introduced"
Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?
Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krishna consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bahya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.
Satsvarupa: Varnashrama is not required.
Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, "I am not brahmana, I am not kshatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srstam. So we are Krishna..., preaching Krishna consciousness. It must be done.
Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.
Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.
Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who'll chant?
Satsvarupa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varnashrama. That's the easiest.
Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...
Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnashrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnashrama is not possible.
Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.
Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnashrama and like that.
Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible.
Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya's chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnashrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnashrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...
Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, kshatriyas. There must be regular education.
Hari-sauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we're training up as Vaishnavas...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?
Prabhupada: Vaishnava is not so easy. The varnashrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaishnava. It is not so easy to become Vaishnava.
Hari-sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaishnava, to become Vaishnava, is not so easy. If Vaishnava, to become Vaishnava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaishnava, that is... fall down.
Hari-sauri: So the varnashrama system is like for the kanisthas, Kanistha-adhikari.
Prabhupada: Kanistha?
Hari-sauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Kanistha-adhikari, yes.
Hari-sauri: Varnashrama system is beneficial.
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is Kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, Kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a qualified brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is Kanistha-adhikari.
arcayam eva haraye
pujam yah shraddhayehate
na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brahmana there is no question of Vaishnava.Hari-sauri: No question of?
Prabhupada: Vaishnavism.
srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah
punya-sravana-kirtanah
hrdy antah-stho hy abhadrani
vidhunoti suhrt satam
By becoming a brahmana, hearing, hearing, hearing... Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a brahmana. The other qualities, shudra quality, kshatriya, vaishya, means finished. So then next stage is, srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah, hrdy antah... Nasta-prayesv abhadresu. By this process, hearing... Without becoming a brahmana nobody is interested to hear. Then, by hearing, Nasta-prayesv abhadresu, then abhadra, means the base qualities, means ignorance and passion... These are the base qualities. So Nasta-prayesv abhadresu. When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, nityam bhagavata-sevaya, by hearing from Bhagavata or by serving the spiritual master and Krishna consciousness movement,
nasta-prayesv abhadresu
nityam bhagavata-sevaya
bhagavaty uttama-sloke
bhaktir bhavati naisthiki
Then he becomes fixed up in devotional... This devotional service is the first-grade quality of sattva-guna.
nasta-prayesv abhadresu
nityam bhagavata-sevaya
bhagavaty uttama-sloke
bhaktir bhavati naisthiki
Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah. When one is situated as a devotee, then this base quality, rajas-tamah, ignorance and passion, the symptoms: kama-lobhadayas ca ye. Kama, lusty desires, and greediness. Sex desire, strong sex desire or satisfy the senses, eating too much, lobha, greediness, these things go. Nityam bhagavata-sevaya bhagavaty uttama... When one is situated in devotional service, tada rajas-tamo-bhavah. These are
rajas-tamo... These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-bhavah. Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye, ceta etair anaviddham. The mind is no more disturbed with all these things. Sthitah sattve prasidati. Then he is to be understood... He's in the sattva-guna. That is perfect brahminical life. Then he'll be pleased. Prasidati. In this way, gradual step... So it is very difficult to bring, introduce varnashrama, but at least there must be some idea. Just like in the university, nobody is going to study higher mathematics, higher English literature. Nobody goes even in your country. The classes are almost vacant. But still, the government does not close it. The expenditure is high, but there is no student, no income. Therefore the professors coming to us, "Give us some student." You know that?Satsvarupa: Religion professors.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, higher studies...
Satsvarupa: Yes. "Send us some of your men."
Prabhupada: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That's all. This is only interest.
Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It's not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.
Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.
Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnashrama system, then?
Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.
Hari-sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...
Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnashrama, not everybody brahmana.
Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...
Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.
Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.
Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a kshatriya. You'll be ha...
Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...
Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?
Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: ...inclined.
Prabhupada: Not that a shudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a shudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a shudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a shudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a shudra perfectly.
Hari-sauri: For Krishna.
Prabhupada: Therefore why a shudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a shudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of shudra, he'll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.
Satsvarupa: Today you've been saying that the Vaishnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaishnava.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaishnava everyone, even if he's not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Krishna." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that."
Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be shudra..."
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he's a shudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a shudra, he's a Vaishnava.
Hari-sauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.
Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krishna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?
Hari-sauri:
sve sve karmany abhiratah
samsiddhim labhate narah
sva-karma-niratah siddhim
yatha vindati tac chrnu
"By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done."Prabhupada: Yes. He is shudra, clerk. He can... As a shudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.
Hari-sauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.
Prabhupada: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He's also not following them. (laughs)
Hari-sauri: Following them. So how will we implement? Right now we have... Every temple president can...
Prabhupada: That is supposed. Where there is no tree, a castor seed tree is very big tree. That is going on.
Satsvarupa: If there's no tree?
Prabhupada: You know castor seed tree, a plant? it does not grow.
Satsvarupa: Small.
Prabhupada: Small. So there is no banyan tree. It is taken "Oh, it is very big."
Hari-sauri: I don't follow the analogy.
Satsvarupa: In the complete absence of trees, then a small tree is considered big.
Hari-sauri: Oh. (laughs) Well, say, like here in Mayapura now we have a situation...
Prabhupada: No, no. Why? Why one should stress to become big tree? Here it is clearly said even if you are small tree, you can get perfection. So we should take that.
Hari-sauri: So in Mayapura here now we have that situation, that so many...
Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty, kshatriya has his duty, vaishya has his duty, shudra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work of shudra, or vaishya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varnashramacaravata purusena parah puman vishnur aradhyate. Vishnu, Lord Vishnu, can be worshipped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varnas and four ashramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a perfect kshatriya, perfect shudra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.
Satsvarupa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brahmana...
Prabhupada: Brahmanas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brahmanas are also available, shudras are also available. Why shudra should be artificially become a brahmana?
Satsvarupa: What will the shudras do in the big city temple, in all the temples?
Prabhupada: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle.
Satsvarupa: Oh.
Hari-sauri: The principle we follow. We're just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale.
Hari-sauri: The principle we're following.
Prabhupada: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or sannyasis. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Krishna consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Krishna's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said para-upakara. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varnashrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy.
Satsvarupa: It requires powerful influence in the society to...
Prabhupada: Yes. If the leaders of the society, they agree. They are barking like dogs in the United Nation. They should take rightly the instruction of Bhagavad-gita. Then everything will be all right. They're simply barking like dogs. What benefit is there? What benefit people have derived from the United Nation? Nothing. So if they want actually world peace, world unity, they must take the formula given by Krishna. That is our duty. Because we are preaching Krishna consciousness, so our duty is to convince that "You are uselessly wasting your time for unity, for benefit of the human... You take this. You'll be happy." We are safe. We have taken to Krishna's lotus feet shelter. There is no doubt. But... Just like Prahlada Maharaja. He said that "I am quite happy. I have no problem. But I am thinking of these rascals." Tato vimudha-cetasa indriyartha: "They have made the whole aim of life sense gratification." Indriyartha. "And for that purpose, a few years, they're making huge arrangement, how we shall become happy?" And next life a dog. It is risky. So as Krishna conscious men, we should try to save them. That is the duty. But this civilization as it is going on is very risky. They do not know how nature's law is working, how he's going to be a dog next life. He does not know. Mudho nabhijanati. To save the mass of people from falling down to the repetition of birth and death, that is welfare activity. To save them by Krishna consciousness, we have to keep this ideal at least, varnashrama, that "Here is the position."
Hari-sauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?
Prabhupada: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakara. We have to keep them in the right position.
Hari-sauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varnashrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.
Prabhupada: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.
Satsvarupa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupada said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the vaishya. But nothing else happened.
Prabhupada: Every business is important. Brahmana business is important, kshatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varnashrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the shudra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now-capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, "No. Simply the legs shall be taken care." What is called? Proly?
Hari-sauri: Proletariat.
Prabhupada: What is that proletariat?
Satsvarupa: The laborers.
Prabhupada: That's all. These rascals are giving stress on the legs. And the capitalists, they are giving stress on production. And where is the kshatriya and brahmana?
Hari-sauri: Well, they're all giving stress to accumulation of weapons. They're all giving stress to...
Prabhupada: That is not kshatriya's business. That is... That is... No, that is described. Krishna said... He arranged the battlefield, because the kshatriyas, they became very powerful by individual military strength as it is now...
Hari-sauri: Accumulation.
Prabhupada: Ha. So Krishna arranged: "All right, you come together and finish yourselves." So this arrangement will be done that all atomic bomb will come in warfield-one, next, third war, finished. All these, all these demons will be finished. That is not kshatriya. This is demonic. Kshatriya's business is to see that the four orders of life are maintained properly, not increasing military strength only, overburdened. Everyone is spending 75% of the revenue for military. Huh? Paritranaya sadhunam vinashaya ca duskrtam. So they are demons. Why so much money should be spent for military? They are not kshatriyas. They are not kshatriyas. They are demons. So demons... As soon as there will be number of demons increased, there will be war and finish all.
Hari-sauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varnashrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...
Prabhupada: At least... At least... At least they will see, "This is the ideal."
Hari-sauri: Yes. Then if there is a war after that, it will be all right.
Prabhupada: At least ideal must be there. That we are doing.
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