Date: Thu, Apr 29 1999 16:29
From: Prtha devi dasi
> Dear Prabhus,
> I have not been back here since my last posting
> for the very reason as what happened. A debate.
> Even, that is OK, it does not appear to be a
> fight.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/4830/Varnasrama_Debate-2C.html
> However, all I was trying to point out is that
> Krishna Consciousness higher than varnashrama
> dharma.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/4830/Varnasrama_Debate-4.html
> This does NOT mean I am against varnashrama-dharma,
> though I am against it when practiced according to
> the caste system, as is my spiritual master. When
> it is practiced according to BG 16:1 - 3, Purport
> I have no problem with that.
/Athens/Thebes/4830/GBC_debate.html
> However, varnashrama is culture, society, etc.
> When one takes to Krishna they care not for
> society but are attracted to that young
> blue boy playing his flute on the banks
> of the Yamuna. :)
Room Conversation, February 14, 1977, Mayapur:
"Varnashrama System Must Be Introduced"
Prabhupada: We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bahya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.
Satsvarupa: Varnashrama is not required.
Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, "I am not brahmana, I am not kshatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srstam. So we are Krishna..., preaching Krishna consciousness. It must be done.
Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.
Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.
Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who'll chant?
Satsvarupa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varnashrama. That's the easiest.
Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...
Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnashrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnashrama is not possible.
Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.
Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnashrama and like that.
Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible.
Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya's chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnashrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do.
> When Prabhupada first came to here to preach,
> what did he preach first and foremost?
> Varnashrama dharma or direct
> transcendental Krishna
> Consciousness? We all
> know the answer to that,
> Direct Krishna Consciousness.
Siksamtra Vol. 3 pg. 2538:
74-04 "Unless we are engaged with all our senses and intelligence in serving Krsna where is the question of Krsna consciousness? We are reading here in the evenings how in the fourth chapter of Bhagavad-gita Krsna has arranged for catur-varnyam, the division of four orders, whereby everyone has some engagement according to his personal propensity, his quality and work, and thus everyone can go back to Godhead while performing their work."
> And my suspicion is he wanted it because he
> knew so many devotees might not make it so
> at least they would have this to fall back
> on. I wish our guurkuli's had this to fall
> back on instead of the American culture.
> It would have helped them and MAYBE
> brought them back around to Krishna
> consciousness.
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 1, Ch. 2 TEXT 2]
PURPORT
Ultimately the aim of varnasrama-dharma is to turn a crude man into a pure devotee of the Lord.
> I say *maybe* because, having lived
> on farms myself I see how it is so
> easy for them to put people into
> slots according to the caste
> system. To lable and disable,
> and no gurukuli is going to
> put up with that.
Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 7 pg. 300:
Srila Prabhupada: For the management of affairs we require to divide. Those who are fit for management and protection they should be trained as ksatriya . . . so in our society this division should be there.
Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 16 pg. 265 & 266, October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:
Prabhupada: Now, if they take to Krsna consciousness, select amongst them. Just like I am training. You are brahmana by training. So one who is prepared to be trained as brahmana, classify him in the brahmana. One is trained up as ksatriya, classify him. In this way, catur-varnyam maya srs...
> Being iIn the middle of nowhere and isolated,
> where strength of farming is so much needed
> that intelligence is often considered
> unimportant, etc.,
Room Conversation, February 14, 1977, Mayapur:
Hari-sauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varnashrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.
Prabhupada: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.
Satsvarupa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupada said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the vaishya. But nothing else happened.
Prabhupada: Every business is important. Brahmana business is important, kshatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varnashrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the shudra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now-capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, "No. Simply the legs shall be taken care." What is called? Proly?
Hari-sauri: Proletariat.
Prabhupada: What is that proletariat?
Satsvarupa: The laborers.
Prabhupada: That's all. These rascals are giving stress on the legs. And the capitalists, they are giving stress on production. And where is the kshatriya and brahmana?
> Anyway, the bottom line I am trying to point
> out is, varnahsrama is about society, culture
> and things of the material world to bring us
> up to human being.
Siksamrta Vol. 3 pg. 2542:
75-01 "If one is capable, then he should preach. On the whole our society should be divided into four divisions, but such divisions are not material. Just like Krsna belonged to the vaisya community but He is worshiped by the brahmanas."
> (The 4 regs are for that purpose too.) Krishna
> may be included, but Hindu's worship Krishna
> and do not have it right.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/4830/GBC_debate.html
> Whereas direct Krishna Consciousness
> as taught by the pure devotee s the
> higher than Varnashrama-dharma.
> (Chanting 16 ruonds daily are
> for THAT purpose.)
Siksamrta Vol. 3 pg. 2538:
74-04 "Unless we are engaged with all our senses and intelligence in serving Krsna where is the question of Krsna consciousness? We are reading here in the evenings how in the fourth chapter of Bhagavad-gita Krsna has arranged for catur-varnyam, the division of four orders, whereby everyone has some engagement according to his personal propensity, his quality and work, and thus everyone can go back to Godhead while performing their work."
Room Conversation, February 14, 1977, Mayapur:
"Varnashrama System Must Be Introduced"
Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...
Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnashrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnashrama is not possible.
Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.
Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnashrama and like that.
Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible.
Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya's chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnashrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do.
> So, we need to learn the difference between
> being human being and society, and becoming
> more than human being - pure devotee, in
> time, and transcendence. That is all.
> YS, Prtha dd
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 1, Ch. 2 TEXT 2]
PURPORT
Ultimately the aim of varnasrama-dharma is to turn a crude man into a pure devotee of the Lord.
---------------------------------------------
Dear Prabhus
Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Have I committed any offenses,
taken any quotes out of context,
made any mistakes, and/or
done anything I shouldn't have?
If so, I'm sorry.
Aspiring to be the sincere
servant of the servant,
Yours Truly,
Gauranga Prema Dasa
Hare Krsna