Prtha Devi Dasi wrote:
> Thirdly, in regard to varnashrama-dharma,
> Prabhupada had a different understanding
> and definition than most devotees. I
> find many devotees are using it as
> a way to advocate the caste system
> to various degrees. Here is what
> Prabhupada has to say about it.
/Athens/Thebes/4830/GBC_debate.html
> "When He (Lord Chaitanya) met Sri Ramananda Raya on the
> banks of the Godavari, the varnashrama-dharma followed
> by Hindus was mentioned by the Lord. Sri Ramananda
> Raya said that by following the principles of
> varnashrama-dharma and four orders of human
> life, everyone could realize transcendence.
> In the opinion of the Lord, the system of
> varnashrama-dharma is superficial only
> and it has very little to do with the
> highest realization of spiritual
> values." Srimad Bhagavatam,
> Introduction.
> "But Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said, 'This is external.
> Say something better.' So in this way Ramananda
> Raya was putting some better proposal than
> varnashrama-dharma." Srimad Bhagavatam
> Lecture, 1972.
Room Conversation, February 14, 1977, Mayapur:
"Varnashrama System Must Be Introduced"
Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?
Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krishna consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bahya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.
Satsvarupa: Varnashrama is not required.
Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, "I am not brahmana, I am not kshatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srstam. So we are Krishna..., preaching Krishna consciousness. It must be done.
Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.
Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.
Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who'll chant?
Satsvarupa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varnashrama. That's the easiest.
Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...
Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnashrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnashrama is not possible.
Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.
Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnashrama and like that.
Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible.
Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya's chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnashrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do.
> we also can read of his other points about it.
> "the institution of varnashrama-dharma is
> used by selfish men to pose an artificial
> predominance over the weaker section."
> Srimad Bhagavatam 1:2:13
THE SCIENCE OF SELF REALIZATION pg. 211:
BTG: America's founding fathers didn't like classes, because they'd had such bad experience with them. Before the revolution, Americans had been ruled by monarchs, but the monarchs would always become tyrannical and unjust.
Srila Prabhupada: Because they weren't trained to be saintly monarchs. In Vedic civilization, boys were trained from the very beginning of life as first class brahmacaris [celibate students]. They went to the gurukula, the school of the spiritual master, and learned self control, cleanliness, truthfulness, and many other saintly qualities. The best of them were later fit to rule the country.
THE SCIENCE OF SELF REALIZATION pg. 212, 213, 214, 215:
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is Krsna consciousness. There should be one nation under God, and one world government under God as well. Everything belongs to God, and we are all His sons. That philosophy is wanted.
BTG: But in America people are very much afraid of a central government because they think that whenever there's a strong government there will always be tyranny.
Srila Prabhupada: If the leaders are properly trained, there cannot be tyranny.
BTG: But one of the premises of the American system of government is that if a leader has too much power, he will inevitably become corrupt.
Srila Prabhupada: You have to train him in such a way that he cannot become corrupt!
BTG: What is that training process?
Srila Prabhupada: That training is the varnasrama-dharma. Divide the society according to quality and train people in the principle that everything belongs to God and should be used in the service of God. Then there really can be "one nation under God."
BTG: But if society is divided into different groups, won't there be envy?
Srila Prabhupada: No, no. Just as in my body there are different parts that work together, so the society can have different parts working for the same goal. My hand is different from my leg. But when I tell the hand, "Bring a glass of water," the leg will help. The leg is required, and the hand is required.
BTG: But in the Western world we have a working class and a capitalist class, and there is always warfare going on between the two.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. The capitalist class is required, and the working class is also required.
BTG: But they are fighting.
Srila Prabhupada: Because they are not trained up; they have no common cause. The hand and the leg work differently, but the common cause is to maintain the body. So if you find out the common cause for both the capitalists and the workers, then there will be no fighting. But if you do not know the common cause, then there will always be fighting.
BTG: Revolution?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes.
BTG: Then the most important thing is to find the common cause that people can unite on?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, just like in our Krsna conscious society you come to consult me about every activity, because I can give you the common cause. Otherwise, there will be fighting. The government should be very expert to know the aim of life - the common cause - and they should train the people to work for the common cause. Then they will be happy and peaceful. But if people simply elect rascals like Nixon, they will never find a common cause. Any rascal can secure votes by some arrangement, and then he becomes the head of the government. The candidates are bribing, they are cheating, they are making propaganda to win votes. Somehow or other they get votes and capture the prime post. This system is bad.
BTG: So if we don't choose our leaders by popular election, how will society be governed?
Srila Prabhupada: You require brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras. Just as when you want to construct a building, you require engineers. You don't want sweepers. Isn't that so? What will the sweeper do? No, there must be engineers. So if you follow the division of varnasrama, only ksatriyas are allowed to govern. And for the legislative assembly - the senators - only qualified brahmanas. Now the butcher is in the legislative assembly. What does he know about making laws? He is a butcher, but by winning votes he becomes a senator. At the present moment, by the principle of vox populi, a butcher goes to the legislature. So everything depends on training. In our Krsna conscious society, we're actually doing that, but in the case of politics, they forget it. There cannot be just one class. That is foolishness, because we have to engage different classes of men in different activities. If we do not know the art, then we will fail, because unless there is a division of work, there will be havoc. We have discussed all the responsibilities of the king in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. The different classes in society should cooperate exactly as the different parts of the body do. Although each part is meant for a different purpose, they all work for one cause: to maintain the body properly.
BTG: What is the actual duty of the government?
Srila Prabhupada: To understand what God wants and to see that society works toward that aim. Then people will be happy. But if the people work in the wrong direction, how can they be happy? The government's duty is to see that they are working in the right direction. The right direction is to know God and to act according to His instructions. But if the leaders themselves do not believe in the supremacy of God, and if they do not know what God wants to do, or what He wants us to do, then how can there be good government? The leaders are misled, and they are misleading others. That is the chaotic condition in the world today.
THE SCIENCE OF SELF REALIZATION pg. 216:
BTG: But if man is small and imperfect, how can he execute God's perfect orders for a perfect government?
Srila Prabhupada: Although you may be imperfect, because you are carrying out my order, you're becoming perfect. You have accepted me as your leader, and I accept God as my leader. In this way society can be governed perfectly.
BTG: So good government means first of all to accept the Supreme Being as the real ruler of the government?
Srila Prabhupada: You cannot directly accept the Supreme Being. You must accept the servants of the Supreme Being - the brahmanas or Vaisnavas [devotees of the Lord] - as your guides. The government men are ksatriyas - the second class. The ksatriyas should take advice from the brahmanas or Vaisnavas and make laws accordingly. The vaisyas should carry out the ksatriya's orders in practice. And the sudras should work under these three orders. Then society will be perfect.
> "The Vaisnava never accepts another Vaisnava on
> the basis of birthright, just as he never thinks
> of the Deity of the Lord in a temple as an idol.
> And to remove all doubts in this connection,
> Srila Sukadeva Goswami has invoked the
> blessings of the Lor> d, who is all-powerful
> (prabhavisnave namaha). As the all-powerful Lord
> accepts the humble service of His devotee in devotional
> service of the arcana, His form as the worshipable Deity
> in the temple, similarly the body of a pure Vaisnava changes
> when he gives himself up to the service of the Lord and is
> trained by a qualified Vaisnava. The injunction of the
> Vaisnava regulation in this connection runs as follows:
> arcye visnau silar-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave
> jati-buddhi sri-vaisnor namni sabda-samanya-buddhi,
> etc. 'One should not consider the Deity of the Lord
> as worshipable in the temple to be an idol, nor
> should one consider the authorized spiritual
> master as an ordinary man. Nor should one
> consider a pure Vaisnava to belong to a
> particular caste, etc.' "Srimad
> Bhagavatam 2:4:18
Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 7 pg. 302:
Srila Prabhupada: Vaisnava is transcendental, but for proper management of the material world, one should be acting like a brahmana, one should be acting like a ksatriya. That is required. If need be he has to act as ksatriya or a sudra. It doesn't matter. But manage, for management the division must be there. Otherwise it will be mismanagement.
> Although one can be brahmana, if the toilets need to
> be cleaned for Krsna than they give up the fancy post
> of brahmana and clean the toilets. If the sudra who
> cleaned the toilets the other day is asked to do an
> aroti (and has 2nd initiation), they give up the
> lowly posiion of sudra and do the aroti. And this
> can switch constantly because we are not
> interested in the caste system of who is
> brahmana, who is sudra, etc., but in
> serving Krishna. Such postions only
> puff us up anyway. So
> varnashrama-dharma where
> one is not attached to any
> particular position and is
> willing to do anything for
> Krishna, I am not against.
BHAGAVAD-GITA 3.35
PURPORT
Everyone has to cleanse his heart by a gradual process, not abruptly. However when one transcends the modes of material nature and is fully situated in Krsna consciousness, he can perform anything and everything under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master. In that complete stage of Krsna consciousness the ksatriya may act as a brahmana, or a brahmana may act as a ksatriya. For example Visvamitra was originally a ksatriya, but later on he acted as a brahmana, whereas Parasurama was a brahmana but later on he acted as a ksatriya. Being transcendentally situated they could do so, but as long as one is on the material platform he must perform his duties according to the modes of material nature. At the same time he must have a full sense of Krsna consciousness. (BHAGAVAD-GITA 3.20 PURPORT: Kings like Janaka . . . all self realized souls . . . transcendentally situated . . . no obligation to perform the prescribed duties in the Vedas, nonetheless they performed all prescribed activities to set examples for the people in general. . . . . Lord Krsna and Arjuna, the Lords eternal friend had no need to fight . . . but they fought just to teach the people in general. Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 7 pg. 302: Srila Prabhupada: If need be he (a vaisnava) has to act as ksatriya or a sudra . . . but manage, for management the division must be there. Otherwise it will be mismanagement.
BHAGAVAD-GITA 2.31
PURPORT
As long as one is not liberated, one has to perform the duties of that particular body in accordance with religious principles in order to achieve liberation.
Nectar of Devotion [Ch. 13] pg. 113:
SB 11.2.8: One should execute the prescribed duties of varna and asrama as long as one has not developed spontaneous attachment for hearing about my pastimes and activities. All of these things are recommended for persons who have not developed Krsna consciousness. . . . . But one who has already developed spontaneous attachment for Krsna does not require to execute the duties in the scriptures. (Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 7 pg. 300: Srila Prabhupada: For the management of affairs we require to divide. Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 7 pg. 302: Srila Prabhupada: Vaisnava is transcendental, but for proper management of the material world, one should be acting like a brahmana, one should be acting like a ksatriya. That is required. If need be he has to act as ksatriya or a sudra. It doesn't matter. But manage, for management the division must be there. Otherwise it will be mismanagement.)
> However, there are many quotes
> where Prabhupada said he did
> not feel we could do
> Varnashrama.
> "The system of caste, or varnashrama-dharma,
> is no longer regular even amongst so-called
> followers of the system. Nor is it now
> possible to reestablish the
> institutional function in
> the present context of
> social, political and
> economic revolution."
> Srimad Bhagavatam 2:4:18
Srimad Bhagavatam [Canto 9, Ch. 10 TEXT 51]
PURPORT
Among the four yugas - Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali, the Kali-yuga is the worst, but if the process of varnasrama-dharma is introduced, even in this age of Kali, the situation of Satya-yuga can be invoked. The Hare Krsna movement is meant for this purpose.
Srimad Bhagavatam [Canto 9, Ch. 10 TEXT 53]
When Lord Ramacandra the Supreme Personality of Godhead was the king of this world, all bodily and mental suffering, disease, old age, bereavement, lamentation, distress, fear and fatigue were completely absent. There was even no death for those who did not want it.
PURPORT
A similar situation could be introduced immediately, even in this age of Kali.
THE SCIENCE OF SELF REALIZATION pg. 223, 1971:
Kalau sudra-sambhavah: In this age practically all men are sudras. . . but to maintain social order you have to train some of the sudras to become brahmanas.
THE SCIENCE OF SELF REALIZATION pg. 232, 1971:
Srila Prabhupada: One who seriously comes to us has to become a brahmana, so he should adopt the occupation of a brahmana and give up the occupation of a ksatriya or sudra. . . . . But if one wants to keep his profession and also at the same time understand our movement that is allowed. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu teaches that it does not matter whether one is a . . . brahmana or a sudra. Lord Caitanya says, "Anyone who understands the science of Krsna becomes my spiritual master."
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Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 8 pg. 321, 1974:
Dr. Patel: Here you have got brahmanas also.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes.
Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 7 pg. 301, 1974:
Srila Prabhupada: So everywhere in each center this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of varnasrama. At the same time this program of devotional service.
Siksamrta Vol. 3 pg. 2539:
74-03 "You must be very careful before you award the brahminical thread by recommending a man to me. Now that we are dividing our society into four orders, as much as possible it is not that every man has to be made a brahmana after a year." (Srila Prabhupada Letter to Trai dasa, May 27, 1974)
Movie: Final Lesson, November, 1977:
Srila Prabhupada: Establish varnasrama-dharma.
> Yes, he wanted us to try, but more
> importantly he wanted us to become
> and spread Krishna Consciousness.
Siksamrta Vol. 3 pg. 2538:
74-04 "Unless we are engaged with all our senses and intelligence in serving Krsna where is the question of Krsna consciousness? We are reading here in the evenings how in the fourth chapter of Bhagavad-gita Krsna has arranged for catur-varnyam, the division of four orders, whereby everyone has some engagement according to his personal propensity, his quality and work, and thus everyone can go back to Godhead while performing their work."
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/4830/Varnasrama_Debate-4.html
> Thirdly, while one may argue that we are
> not pure devotees, the only way to become
> pure is by discontinuing the caste system
> of varnasrama-dharma and following the
> transcendental instructions of Srila
> Prabhupada, our uttama-adhikari. Of
> course, if one is very attached to
> Varnashrama-dharma, they will not
> hear but only argue these points.
> YS,
> Prtha dd
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 1, Ch. 2 TEXT 2]
PURPORT
Ultimately the aim of varnasrama-dharma is to turn a crude man into a pure devotee of the Lord.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/4830/GBC_debate.html
> Varnashrama-dharma is often for those who
> have a hard time in Krishna Consciousness
> so they do these other things.
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 1, Ch. 19 TEXT 4]
PURPORT
...varnasrama-dharma is also known as sanatana-dharma, or the eternal occupation.
BHAGAVAD-GITA INTRODUCTION:
We are temporarily engaged in different activities, but all these can be purified when we give up all these temporary activities and take up the activities which are prescribed by the Supreme Lord. That is called our pure life.
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 3, Ch. 28 TEXT 2]
PURPORT
One should seek out a bona fide spiritual master and surrender unto him, for by inquiring from and worshiping him one can learn spiritual activities. As long as we have this material body there are various duties prescribed for us. Such duties are divided by a system of four social orders: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra.
---------------------------------------------
Dear Prabhus
Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Have I committed any offenses,
taken any quotes out of context,
made any mistakes, and/or
done anything I shouldn't have?
If so, I'm sorry.
Aspiring to be the sincere
servant of the servant,
Yours Truly,
Gauranga Prema Dasa
Hare Krsna