> Oh yes, preposing that we return to a
> premodern society. Anyway, forget it,
> first Krsna consciousness then
> you'll know, you won't have to
> speculate.
Siksamrta Vol. 3 pg. 2538:
74-04 "You have analyzed that you are distressed because you are not given an engagement in Krsna consciousness. This observation is correct. Unless we are engaged with all our senses and intelligence in serving Krsna where is the question of Krsna consciousness? We are reading here in the evenings how in the fourth chapter of Bhagavad-gita Krsna has arranged for catur-varnyam, the division of four orders, whereby everyone has some engagement according to his personal propensity, his quality and work, and thus everyone can go back to Godhead while performing their work."
> As it stands now your not a society of
> Bhramanas, Ksyatrias, or Vaisyas, except
> in occupational duties. How many of you
> though are actually situated in Bhraman
> realization? And how many of you who are
> actually situated in Bhraman realization
> are performing devotional service in
> Bhraman realization? You'll have to
> have at least a few because they are
> your heads and only the heads are
> going to know what to do.
> We are all sudras
THE SCIENCE OF SELF REALIZATION pg. 223:
Kalau sudra-sambhavah: In this age practically all men are sudras. . . but to maintain social order you have to train some of the sudras to become brahmanas.
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Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 8 pg. 321, 1974:
Dr. Patel: Here you have got brahmanas also.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes.
Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 7 pg. 301, 1974:
Srila Prabhupada: So everywhere in each center this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of varnasrama. At the same time this program of devotional service.
Siksamrta Vol. 3 pg. 2539:
74-03 "You must be very careful before you award the brahminical thread by recommending a man to me. Now that we are dividing our society into four orders, as much as possible it is not that every man has to be made a brahmana after a year." (Srila Prabhupada Letter to Trai dasa, May 27, 1974)
Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 16, pg. 265 & 266, October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:
Harikesa: How in the beginning... Let's say you have a king...
Prabhupada: Beginning Krsna.
Harikesa: No, no. Let's say you have a king, and he is deciding this person is worthy of...
Prabhupada: No, no, beginning, Krsna. Why don't you read Bhagavad-gita? You don't know?
Harikesa: No, no. Yes.
Prabhupada: What is the social arrangement? What is that?
Harikesa: That Krsna created the four orders.
Prabhupada: Yes. So you make that four orders, and then society will be in order. But you are not taking Krsna's advice. You are manufacturing your hellish ideas.
Harikesa: No, I was just wondering how one would be able to see who was acting in a certain way unless they were first engaged in something. They have to be doing some activity...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Harikesa: ...so you can see what kind of quality they have.
Prabhupada: No, no. Take "everyone is rascal," then train them. That is wanted. Take everyone as rascal. There is no question that "Here is intelligent man, here is rascal, here is the..." No. First of all take them all rascals, and then train them. That is wanted. That is wanted now. At the present moment the whole world is full of rascals. Now, if they take to Krsna consciousness, select amongst them. Just like I am training. You are brahmana by training. So one who is prepared to be trained as brahmana, classify him in the brahmana. One is trained up as ksatriya, classify him. In this way, catur-varnyam maya srs...
Harikesa: And that ksatriya would engage everyone basically as sudra and then pick from them.
Prabhupada: Hm.?
Harikesa: He would initially pick...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. You pick up... You take the whole mass of people as sudra. Then...
Harikesa: Pick out.
Prabhupada: Pick out. And rest, who is neither brahmana nor ksatriya nor vaisya, then he is sudra. That's all, very easy thing. If he cannot be trained up as engineer, then he remains as a common man. There is no force. This is the way of organizing society. There is no force. Sudra is also required.
Room Conversation, February 14, 1977, Mayapur:
"Varnashrama System Must Be Introduced"
Prabhupada: Every business is important. Brahmana business is important, kshatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varnashrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the shudra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now-capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, "No. Simply the legs shall be taken care." What is called? Proly?
Hari-sauri: Proletariat.
Prabhupada: What is that proletariat?
Satsvarupa: The laborers.
Prabhupada: That's all. These rascals are giving stress on the legs. And the capitalists, they are giving stress on production. And where is the kshatriya and brahmana?
> Lord Caitanya came after Varasram dharma
> and so its a whole new ball game.
Room Conversation, February 14, 1977, Mayapur:
"Varnashrama System Must Be Introduced"
Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?
Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krishna consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bahya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.
Satsvarupa: Varnashrama is not required.
Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, "I am not brahmana, I am not kshatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srstam. So we are Krishna..., preaching Krishna consciousness. It must be done.
Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.
Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.
Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who'll chant?
Satsvarupa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varnashrama. That's the easiest.
Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...
Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnashrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnashrama is not possible.
Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.
Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnashrama and like that.
Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible.
Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also. Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya's chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnashrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnashrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...
Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, kshatriyas. There must be regular education.
Hari-sauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we're training up as Vaishnavas...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?
Prabhupada: Vaishnava is not so easy. The varnashrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaishnava. It is not so easy to become Vaishnava.
Hari-sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaishnava, to become Vaishnava, is not so easy. If Vaishnava, to become Vaishnava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaishnava, that is... fall down. . . . . .
Satsvarupa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brahmana...
Prabhupada: Brahmanas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brahmanas are also available, shudras are also available. Why shudra should be artificially become a brahmana?
Satsvarupa: What will the shudras do in the big city temple, in all the temples?
Prabhupada: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle.
Satsvarupa: Oh.
Hari-sauri: The principle we follow. We're just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale.
Hari-sauri: The principle we're following.
Prabhupada: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or sannyasis. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Krishna consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Krishna's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said para-upakara. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varnashrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy.
---------------------------------------------
Dear Prabhus
Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Have I committed any offenses,
taken any quotes out of context,
made any mistakes, and/or
done anything I shouldn't have?
If so, I'm sorry.
Aspiring to be the sincere
servant of the servant,
Yours Truly,
Gauranga Prema Dasa
Hare Krsna