From: Jagat
> Haribol Pitaji,
> I have been trying to tell Gauranga Prema Prabhu
> that what Prabhupada meant when he was talking
> about VAD was to create a lay community for
> Iskcon.
Room Conversation, February 14, 1977, Mayapur:
"Varnashrama System Must Be Introduced"
Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, kshatriyas. There must be regular education.
Hari-sauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we're training up as Vaishnavas...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?
Prabhupada: Vaishnava is not so easy. The varnashrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaishnava. It is not so easy to become Vaishnava.
Hari-sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaishnava, to become Vaishnava, is not so easy. If Vaishnava, to become Vaishnava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaishnava, that is... fall down.
Hari-sauri: So the varnashrama system is like for the kanisthas, Kanistha-adhikari.
Prabhupada: Kanistha?
Hari-sauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Kanistha-adhikari, yes.
Hari-sauri: Varnashrama system is beneficial.
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is Kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, Kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a qualified brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is Kanistha-adhikari.
arcayam eva haraye
pujam yah shraddhayehate
na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brahmana there is no question of Vaishnava.Hari-sauri: No question of?
Prabhupada: Vaishnavism.
srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah
punya-sravana-kirtanah
hrdy antah-stho hy abhadrani
vidhunoti suhrt satam
By becoming a brahmana, hearing, hearing, hearing... Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a brahmana. The other qualities, shudra quality, kshatriya, vaishya, means finished. So then next stage is, srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah, hrdy antah... Nasta-prayesv abhadresu. By this process, hearing... Without becoming a brahmana nobody is interested to hear. Then, by hearing, Nasta-prayesv abhadresu, then abhadra, means the base qualities, means ignorance and passion... These are the base qualities. So Nasta-prayesv abhadresu. When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, nityam bhagavata-sevaya, by hearing from Bhagavata or by serving the spiritual master and Krishna consciousness movement,
nasta-prayesv abhadresu
nityam bhagavata-sevaya
bhagavaty uttama-sloke
bhaktir bhavati naisthiki
Then he becomes fixed up in devotional... This devotional service is the first-grade quality of sattva-guna.
nasta-prayesv abhadresu
nityam bhagavata-sevaya
bhagavaty uttama-sloke
bhaktir bhavati naisthiki
Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah. When one is situated as a devotee, then this base quality, rajas-tamah, ignorance and passion, the symptoms: kama-lobhadayas ca ye. Kama, lusty desires, and greediness. Sex desire, strong sex desire or satisfy the senses, eating too much, lobha, greediness, these things go. Nityam bhagavata-sevaya bhagavaty uttama... When one is situated in devotional service, tada rajas-tamo-bhavah. These are
rajas-tamo... These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-bhavah. Tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye, ceta etair anaviddham. The mind is no more disturbed with all these things. Sthitah sattve prasidati. Then he is to be understood... He's in the sattva-guna. That is perfect brahminical life. Then he'll be pleased. Prasidati. In this way, gradual step... So it is very difficult to bring, introduce varnashrama, but at least there must be some idea. Just like in the university, nobody is going to study higher mathematics, higher English literature. Nobody goes even in your country. The classes are almost vacant. But still, the government does not close it. The expenditure is high, but there is no student, no income. Therefore the professors coming to us, "Give us some student." You know that?Satsvarupa: Religion professors.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, higher studies...
Satsvarupa: Yes. "Send us some of your men."
Prabhupada: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That's all. This is only interest.
Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It's not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.
Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.
Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnashrama system, then?
Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.
Hari-sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...
Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnashrama, not everybody brahmana.
Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...
Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.
Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.
Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a kshatriya. You'll be ha...
Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...
Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?
Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: ...inclined.
Prabhupada: Not that a shudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a shudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a shudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a shudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a shudra perfectly.
Hari-sauri: For Krishna.
Prabhupada: Therefore why a shudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a shudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of shudra, he'll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.
Satsvarupa: Today you've been saying that the Vaishnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaishnava.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaishnava everyone, even if he's not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Krishna." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that."
Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be shudra..."
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he's a shudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a shudra, he's a Vaishnava.
Hari-sauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.
Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krishna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?
Hari-sauri:
sve sve karmany abhiratah
samsiddhim labhate narah
sva-karma-niratah siddhim
yatha vindati tac chrnu
"By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done."Prabhupada: Yes. He is shudra, clerk. He can... As a shudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.
Hari-sauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.
Prabhupada: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He's also not following them. (laughs)
Hari-sauri: Following them. So how will we implement? Right now we have... Every temple president can...
Prabhupada: That is supposed. Where there is no tree, a castor seed tree is very big tree. That is going on.
Satsvarupa: If there's no tree?
Prabhupada: You know castor seed tree, a plant? it does not grow.
Satsvarupa: Small.
Prabhupada: Small. So there is no banyan tree. It is taken "Oh, it is very big."
Hari-sauri: I don't follow the analogy.
Satsvarupa: In the complete absence of trees, then a small tree is considered big.
Hari-sauri: Oh. (laughs) Well, say, like here in Mayapura now we have a situation...
Prabhupada: No, no. Why? Why one should stress to become big tree? Here it is clearly said even if you are small tree, you can get perfection. So we should take that.
Hari-sauri: So in Mayapura here now we have that situation, that so many...
Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty, kshatriya has his duty, vaishya has his duty, shudra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work of shudra, or vaishya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varnashramacaravata purusena parah puman vishnur aradhyate. Vishnu, Lord Vishnu, can be worshipped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varnas and four ashramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a perfect kshatriya, perfect shudra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.
Satsvarupa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brahmana...
Prabhupada: Brahmanas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brahmanas are also available, shudras are also available. Why shudra should be artificially become a brahmana?
Satsvarupa: What will the shudras do in the big city temple, in all the temples?
Prabhupada: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle.
Satsvarupa: Oh.
Hari-sauri: The principle we follow. We're just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale.
Hari-sauri: The principle we're following.
Prabhupada: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or sannyasis. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Krishna consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Krishna's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said para-upakara. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varnashrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy.
Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 7 pg. 301, 1974:
Srila Prabhupada: So everywhere in each center this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of varnasrama. At the same time this program of devotional service.
> Can devotees impose VAD upon society
> in general? Of course not.
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 6, Ch. 7 TEXT 12]
PURPORT
If the American people are serious about curbing the degraded criminal life of their nation they must take to the Krsna consciousness movement and try to create the kind of human society advised in the Bhagavad-gita (catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah). They must divide their nation into first class men, second class men, third class men and fourth class men.
THE SCIENCE OF SELF REALIZATION pg. 324:
In any society you can see that unless there are these four divisions, there will be chaos. It will not work properly. It will be Maya, and there will be disturbances.
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 7, Ch. 11 TEXT 20]
PURPORT
Although the Krsna consciousness movement is a movement of brahmanas and vaisnavas, it is trying to re-establish the divine varnasrama system, for without this division of society there cannot be peace and prosperity anywhere.
> Prabhupada may have said that we should do that,
> but you are right, he was talking long term.
Fortunate Souls pg. 477:
"But if we accept the principle of varna and asrama as they are recommended in the sastra, and if we push on the Krsna consciousness movement, and if we push on the Krsna consciousness movement, surely everyone will be engaged in his occupation. In Delhi, Nandaji said that immediately these things cannot be introduced, but I think it can be introduced immediately without any loss of time, provided you are serious about it."
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Prabhakar, May 31, 1975)
Siksamrta Vol. 3 pg. 2539:
74-03 "You must be very careful before you award the brahminical thread by recommending a man to me. Now that we are dividing our society into four orders, as much as possible it is not that every man has to be made a brahmana after a year." (Srila Prabhupada Letter to Trai dasa, May 27, 1974)
Conversations With Srila Prabhupada Vol. 16 pg. 265 & 266, October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:
Prabhupada: Take everyone is rascal, then train them. That is wanted. Take everyone as rascal. There is no question that here is intelligent man, here is rascal, here is the... No. First of all take them all as rascals and train them. That is wanted. That is wanted now. At the present moment the whole world is full of rascals. Now, if they take to Krsna consciousness, select amongst them. Just like I am training you. You are brahmana by training. So one who is prepared to be trained as brahmana classify him in the brahmana. One is trained up as ksatriya, classify him. In this way catur-varnyam maya srs...
> Iskcon has made the big mistake of giving no value
> to ordinary work in this world. Prabhupada, on the
> other hand, said that this was the beginning of
> spiritual life in his commentaries on the
> conversation with Ramananda Ray.
> Nearly everyone sees some inherent value in their own
> activities. Everyone has a reason for the choices they
> make. No one wants to be put down as a karmi or
> fringy because they have made choices that take
> them away from a fully committed temple life.
> Rather, their choices should be seen as
> appropriate for their spiritual state.
> Your servant,
> Jagadananda Das.
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 3, Ch. 22 TEXT 7]
PURPORT
The real fact is that a bona fide spiritual master knows the nature of a particular man and what sort of duties he can perform in Krsna consciousness, and he instructs him in that way. He instructs him through the ear, not privately but publicly. "You are fit for such and such work in Krsna consciousness. You can act in this way.". . . . There are different departments of activity in Krsna consciousness, and a spiritual master knowing the particular ability of a man trains him in such a way that by his tendency to act he becomes perfect. Bhagavad-gita makes it clear that one can attain the highest perfection of spiritual life by offering service according to his ability, just as Arjuna served Krsna by his ability in the military art. Arjuna offered his service as a military man and he became perfect. . . . . One who wants to be certain to achieve spiritual success must take instruction from the spiritual master as to what his particular function is.
Srimad-Bhagavatam [Canto 3, Ch. 28 TEXT 2]
PURPORT
One should seek out a bona fide spiritual master and surrender unto him, for by inquiring from and worshiping him one can learn spiritual activities. As long as we have this material body there are various duties prescribed for us. Such duties are divided by a system of four social orders: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra.
BHAGAVAD-GITA 3.15
PURPORT
Anything performed without the direction of the Vedas is called vikarma, or unauthorized, or sinful work.
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Dear Prabhus
Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Have I committed any offenses,
taken any quotes out of context,
made any mistakes, and/or
done anything I shouldn't have?
If so, I'm sorry.
Aspiring to be the sincere
servant of the servant,
Yours Truly,
Gauranga Prema Dasa
Hare Krsna