From: SNAKEBYTE To: RAVEN Subject: rOAD rALLY..... Date & Time: 05/09/90 00:56:23 Message Number 4352 Well, the turn-out was rather sad, but at least it gave me some insight into how to do the next one.....watch for it!!!! =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: SAURON Subject: thermodynamics Date & Time: 05/09/90 00:59:15 Message Number 4353 Well I'll be........PUT A TIGER IN MY TANK!!!! =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: ummmmmm Date & Time: 05/09/90 01:01:15 Message Number 4354 <: thanx =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: TURTLE Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/09/90 01:43:32 Message Number 4355 Yep, sounds very coherent to me. If you think the world is but a trial through which you must pass to reach heaven, life will seem a trial. I'd rather enjoy what's here, and deal with what I can't possibly know about when it arrives. - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: TURTLE Subject: 286: Stone Age Date & Time: 05/09/90 01:45:25 Message Number 4356 Okay, there is real (good) BBS software which will run on your machine, but it's not readily available.. mine is. Heck, there are PD MsDos BBS's with more features than PBBS, that's one of the main advantages of running an MS-DOS compatible, you have a readily available LARGE PD and Shareware base. Telix is a great Comm program, and readily available.. do you have /anything/ which will do everything telix does.. I doubt it, but of course you like cryptic commands.. (Yuck.. I just read the line above.. I don't like it.. but your editor bites.. so you'll have to read it. I wish people wouldn't have such good boards w/ such crappy software aaarrgghhh!!) - Corwyn (From the random depths of a sick mind) =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: DONTHEN Subject: This area Date & Time: 05/09/90 01:53:13 Message Number 4357 Yea, I heard about it at OS/2-fest.. the door prize was 3 gigabytes of ram.. so you could actually run the system comfortably, and even run an APPLICATION or two.. talk about lucky, having enough memory to run a program under OS/2!! - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: -=*><*=- Date & Time: 05/09/90 01:55:28 Message Number 4358 Hmm.. how did you get to be a snake? I'm having weird visions of a terror stricken man looking across the bed, and wishing he could slither away.. hmm At least I haven't had any mornings like that recently. - Corwyn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: ALL Subject: Storyboard! Date & Time: 05/09/90 05:52:00 Message Number 4359 Missing the Wyvern's Den: Ranean Tales? Need another good-quality storyboard? Try calling The Shadow (359-1717), and check out "The Castle," a quasi-medieval storyboard with a few references to Amber completely having been warped by Spellwind a few months back! Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: ACAPULCO Subject: What I'm doing. Date & Time: 05/09/90 05:55:37 Message Number 4360 Thank you, Acapulco... By the way, it takes EXACTLY the same amount of faith to say that there is no God as it does to say that there is one. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: KILLASHANDRA REE Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/09/90 05:57:18 Message Number 4361 Dear Killashandra, Welcome to aLTER rEALITY.... At least, I don't think I've seen your name before. Is Christianity "just another pair of spectacles"? It does its best to make exclusionist claims ("Thou shalt have no other gods before me", "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons." I Cor 10:21) -- at least in regard to these claims, Christianity must be 100% correct, or 100% wrong. (At least Christianity isn't the only religion that does this.) Examine its other claims: that its workers performed miracles, and that its Founder rose from the dead. Again, this is fairly common among religions. What's different about Christianity is that the claims were made of a person who allegedly lived at the same time as the people who wrote the book: in at least the case of one of the Gospels, it was claimed that only about twenty years ago did Jesus rise from the dead. There were people still around who had known Jesus well, and could have verified it. Why might have Mark written such a thing? Do you feel it was pure fiction? =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: KILLASHANDRA REE Subject: What I'm doing. Date & Time: 05/09/90 06:12:05 Message Number 4362 Do game-theoretic terms provide a sufficient reason for believing in God? Well, to be a complete pragmatist, yes. Think about the eternal results of believing: either nothingness or salvation. Think about the eternal results of not believing: either nothingness or damnation. Nothing personal, but salvation (even boring salvation!) seems a lot better to me than damnation. (Even though the interesting people might be there.) Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: TURTLE Subject: Xnty... Date & Time: 05/09/90 06:16:57 Message Number 4363 Turtle, Found your own religion. Not only will it make you extremely rich, you might create universal peace and brotherhood. Then again, you might plunge the world into the Second Dark Ages. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: YNGLING Subject: please... Date & Time: 05/09/90 06:19:02 Message Number 4364 Dear the Yngling, This past summer, I worked for Atencion San Miguel, a mostly- English language newspaper in San Miguel de Allende, Mexico. One of my co-workers told me about a Bible study going on Tuesday nights at her house, lead by "Pastor Bill," a person who I had heard about before. Intrigued, I went. Quite unlike the New College Bible studies I was used to, Pastor Bill used his studies as a kind of a pulpit: to preach his version of the Word. But he was an extremely charismatic man, and was quickly building a following -- and I agreed with what he said, mostly. That week, he mentioned that he had managed to rent a large room at a local hotel (the meeting room) for every Sunday morning for the next few months, and that the Sunday church would be meeting there from now on. I went ahead and went. At first, Pastor Bill seemed to be an excellent preacher. He knew the Bible well, and he could explain his ideas extremely clearly. I started inviting people to come, myself, and talked with many of his younger followers. About the third week I was there, he started making a few assumptions within his speeches that I didn't like. (He accidentally let drop that he was an Episcopal -- but no longer.) About the second time this happened, after Church when most people had left, I asked him how he interpreted certain Bible verses that seemed to go opposite to what he was saying. (For those who are interested, he was preaching that Christians do not have a sure salvation; that any sin can separate you from God, and once you are separated, you cannot return to God's fold.) What got to me was that no one else seemed to notice anything was wrong. After that, every week after Church, I asked him how he explained certain Bible verses which contradicted his sermon. About the fifth week, someone had found out about our talks, and a few started sticking around for them. By my seventh week, about half the church did. =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: YNGLING Subject: please... Date & Time: 05/09/90 06:33:13 Message Number 4365 By then, people started switching their alliegences away from Bill. The problem was, most of them didn't know enough of God's Word to successfully challenge him... and at least two asked me to present their problems to Bill. (I refused.) Also, Bill had been a popular person to explain personal problems to: by the end of the summer, a third of them were coming to me. Pastor Bill was not pleased. Ever since Pastor Bill, I've been extremely suspicious of larger churches, especially those based on the personality of the pastor. (The charismatic churches...) Too many people knew how to be sheep -- and only how to be sheep. When their first shepherd didn't seem to be all that great, they followed a second shepherd. There was never a true "schism" -- but Pastor Bill lost a lot of respect (not to mention some of his congregation.) Although I haven't talked with any of the members since, I hope I've taught them to think for themselves -- espectially in religion. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: Pizza=God Date & Time: 05/09/90 06:45:08 Message Number 4366 Dear Corwyn, Go back to your coffin. There's still a few hours of daylight. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: God... Date & Time: 05/09/90 06:51:02 Message Number 4367 Dear Black Magic (et al.) Everyone yells about "rights," "rights," "rights." ("It's a woman's right to have an abortion."..."We have the right not to allow our children to see pornographic magazines."..."Everyone has the right to decent housing, food, education, and leisure.") Unfortunately, nature has given us NONE of those rights. Not even the right to life, liberty, or the happiness of pursuit. The only "rights" that any of us have are doled out by the government, and can change with the times. Is it a "right" for women to have an abortion? Under the current laws, yes. This might change, and by no means is it a "natural" right. =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: -=*><*=- Date & Time: 05/09/90 06:57:54 Message Number 4369 Yes, but who cares about pornographic pictures of snakes? Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: DELPHI To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/09/90 09:31:40 Message Number 4371 Hope you're still listening. Been too busy to get to the modem but have been thinking ... Okay, this time I wrote down some of the comments so I could remember what to answer. Is there a way to print this stuff out or put it on disk to think about later? I notice you call Adonai "he". At first I balked at this, but I do belie believe that this may be appropriate. I would agree with the concept of a god separate from life/time/space as patriarchal male concept. On the other hand, the concept of the whole of creation as not so much a diety but as a fully interacting, active Be-ing does correspond more to the this-dimensional image of the goddess (as opposed to a goddess). Womyn as we know us in humanity create within and about us at the same time. Her name is (among others) Gaia. Actually, this opens the relevance of other dimensions discussion. I believe it is because we see ourselves as limited only to this two or three dimensional physical dimension that we find ourselves contained in such absurdities as dualities, dichotimies, polarities. It is like the definition of good and evil -- these are two patriarchal constructs that we see only from our perspective. If what we think of as good is see fro from another perspective, then it is no longer good. It may not be evil either. It may be neutral. It may be dangerous, exciting, daring, fun, boring. There are dozens of other sprialing paths that lead off the linear division of good an evil. But as long as we limit ourselves to the physical dimesion and accept only what these simple six senses tell us, then we are forcing ourselves into a viewpoint that maintains and reinforces these dualities in life. When we begin to accept, for example the dream dimension as reality, we expand our consciousness. What if the dream dimension, which most of us visit regularly, is true reality and daily life is artificial? What if there is more? I don't know how to end this, so I'll try stopping her and starting a ne message. =========== From: DELPHI To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/09/90 09:46:28 Message Number 4372 Well, hope this worked. As for the spark of the universe giving so much more to certain entities I again have to say that it is only your perspective that sees humanity, and banana plants as having more spark than rocks or earth. I am coming to believe the earth, for example, is a living, breathing entity as much as we are. She constantly gives birth, evolves, revolves and is being attacked by her offspring in human form, mostly in patriarchal limitation. Ask any gemstone advocate about the energy and power of certain rocks and stones. I have no personal experience with moondust, but I feel certain those scientists in labs are still trying to prove their own alleged objectivity and have no idea of the potential that may lie in real moondust. Maybe it is even part of the mother earth that survived when someshow separated and spun into the universe. Of course, I, too, am cursed with having grown up in patriarchal perspective so I see a separate moon where there may be no division at all. I believe I am only now opening my mind/senses to perceive without some of these limitations. Mary Daly is a feminist philosopher at Boston College. You may like her first book, The Church and the Second Sex, however, this is no longer tr true to her theory. The second one, Beyond God the Father Toward a Philosophy of Women's Liberation, steps off the cliff of patriarchy into New Feminist Time/Space. Several others follow including Wickedary, Gyn/Ecology: The Metaethics of Radical Feminism and Pure Lust: Elemental Feminist Philosophy. I have yet to read them all, since each one takes a lot of time and study to grasp the concepts. Most of them are published through Beacon Press, a Unitarian Universalist related publishing company. One of her most exciting concepts to me (at the moment) is the idea of taking whatever the patriarchy tells you is reality, seeing it, then turning it upside down and that is what reality really is. Guess that's all for now. Really. =========== From: DONTHEN To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: 286: Stone Age Date & Time: 05/09/90 10:55:39 Message Number 4373 > There are PD MS-DOS BBS's with more features than PBBS... But most of them are dippy. I'm not really sure why, mind you, but a lot of them are like WWIV--a lot of features, but even more "hardwired" about things than PBBS is, i.e., even the menu text files are stored internally. Turtle & I have two other Trash-80 BBS's with more features than PBBS -- TCL2 and ERACS. TCL2 is completely hardwired and is, well, dippy (even more so than the MS-DOS ones I was talking about). ERACS is extremely powerful and very flexible, but is so much of a pain in the ass I wouldn't go near it unless paid considerable sums of money. It literally rewrites the DOS so when you log on to it, you're really logging on to the oomputer the same way you'd log onto a mainframe. It adds things like a programmable menu system, carrier check, and wheel protection to TRSDOS; effectively, every command on an ERACS menu would be a "door" to other BBS programs, including the subsystems for messages and file transfers. It's a really clever setup, but once you install it IT WON'T GO AWAY because it's made itself an integral part of your operating system. Also, the message system, while it allows for 99 different conferences, has an EVEN STUPIDER EDITOR THAN PBBS DOES, something you wouldn't think was humanly possible until you used it. It is literally so difficult to use than an average BBS-goer could not make it save a message. =========== From: DONTHEN To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Storyboard! Date & Time: 05/09/90 11:03:58 Message Number 4374 Speaking of RANEAN TALES, that entire sub-base is likely to move over here once I can get my system set up somewhere and get the last 40 or so messages copied off it and post a new intro/summary here.... =========== From: TURTLE To: DONTHEN Subject: This area Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:00:56 Message Number 4375 >How silly of me. Z-System is an add-on for OS/2. I think it requires >Presentation Manager, too, doesn't it? I have never felt a compelling need to run a BBS with an official policy on obscenity in the message bases... ...until now. =========== From: TURTLE To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: New Subject Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:05:18 Message Number 4376 >I wish people wouldn't have such good boards w/ such crappy software... Watch it, Bub, or I'll start running ERACS and you'll have the pleasure of dealing with an entirely command-driven system, no menus in sight... ...and I CAN CHOOSE THE COMMANDS...hehehehehehehe............... --An 8-bit mutant hacker Turtle =========== From: TURTLE To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: real Christians Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:09:04 Message Number 4377 >...at least in regard to these claims, Christianity must be 100% >correct or 100% wrong. That doesn't necessarily follow. It is possible that Christianity has the correct idea but a distorted view of god, so that the god which is worshipped by Christians is the same as that worshipped by practioners of another religion, and the distortion prevents Christians from recognizing that fact. Also, the Bible does not make as strong a claim to exclucivity as people would like to have it make--Jesus said "no man comes to the Father except by me," but he didn't say "...and there's only one way to do that." A religion which meets that qualification in a manner which is not recognizably Christian may still have validity from god's point of view--unlike many Christians, /I/ for one would not assume god's ability to pass judgement on man. And didn't Jesus himself speak of preaching to "different flocks"...?? =========== From: KEN OBER To: DONTHEN Subject: nope... Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:22:38 Message Number 4379 It was normal ASCII! ///// and \\\\\ were used, tho.... =========== From: KEN OBER To: KEN OBER Subject: ack! Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:23:20 Message Number 4380 This BBS software doesn't support a backslash! That's dumb! =========== From: TURTLE To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Xnty... Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:26:21 Message Number 4381 I don't do the "found your own religion" thing...it's too much like work, and besides, it gets the IRS breathing down your neck. On the other hand, I'd be happy to act as a creative consultant to someone /else/ who was looking to start a religion. --A lazy Turtle =========== From: TURTLE To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: <*=-:-=*> Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:29:59 Message Number 4382 Who cares about pornographic pictures of snakes? Other snakes, of course! (wanders away, muttering something about people who miss the obvious...) =========== From: TURTLE To: DONTHEN Subject: Intel IAPX86 Date & Time: 05/09/90 14:33:02 Message Number 4383 ERACS has the dumbest message editor I've ever seen, sure, but the beauty of an ERACS system is that you could run another BBS program under it with relative ease...or even (gasp!) write your own. Every now and then, late at night, I still debate putting up ERACS and letting the dice fall where they may... =========== From: JONBOY To: RUFUS Subject: Deal Date & Time: 05/09/90 16:14:01 Message Number 4384 It's the forrunner of RBBS (the A is for Apple strangely enuf!) Hmmmm usually anything with Pro in it was written by Roger Wagner Publishing and IS probably good. =========== From: JONBOY To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Real solutions Date & Time: 05/09/90 16:17:40 Message Number 4386 about half of that list are things that are VERY liberal in their interpretation. If anything each year that passes stamps the book ever more firmly as FACT not fiction. The only parts left open to "belief" are the assertions that it was directed by a omniscient being, that he created us and this universe, and that this is his record of his dealings with us and his plan for us. As far as the probelm of evil - NEVER has it been so exquisitly stated as in the book of Job - the Bible does not attempt to evade any issues - it does give food for MEDITATIVE thought - if you go looking for a blueprint for life & happiness then life in general will disappoint you as well as the Bible. =========== From: JONBOY To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Foo Date & Time: 05/09/90 16:23:31 Message Number 4387 C'mon Chip - be CORRECT - not sensationalistic! Ananias (& his wife) were killed because they LIED about how much they gave when they didn't have to. Nobody was "keeping track" of whom gave how much but they were deliberately trying to appear "holier than thou" by giving only a small portion of the proceeds of the sale of their property and claiming to have given it all. According to the beliefs of the early Christians all was owed to God as it came from God it was a very early community effort at raising funds to survive in what had become a very hostile land that prompted the land sale. To "hold out" and claim the benefits of their "sacrifice" was an outright insult to God himself and all the others that had given all they had to the early Church. It may seem extreme to us as far as punishment but - we are judging by our values which is arrogant to an extreme to assert that we are correct and other value systems are wrong. =========== From: JONBOY To: DELPHI Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/09/90 16:53:36 Message Number 4388 Just as a quickiee -- the actual reference to God in the Bible contains both male and female qualities and as such is a major balk to Jewish people as they think it's a bogus gentile trick (even though their own texts say it too). =========== From: JONBOY To: ALL Subject: Mania Date & Time: 05/09/90 16:58:23 Message Number 4389 hehehehehehee never fails - make a few remarks about God and even the lurkers come out with barbed weapons. Shoot - I couldn't log on for a few days and had to capture all of the messages for leisurely digestion. I'll post after some serious thoughts. Chip, Turtle - you folks are veritable GEMS! Here I thought I might get a few canned comebacks and - wow! Such neat little verbal repartee's. I *was* slightly disappointed in Turtle ending with the old weak -"more crimes, wars is due to Christainity than anything else" crap. Hell the Chinese have eradicated entire cultures within their own in centuries gone by. Right now we have a group of priests in Nepal trying to maintain a bloody status quo - face it Turtle *wherever* there has been a cause, good or bad, there have been con artists and exploiters to take advantage of the "followers" (sheep waiting to be sheared (is /this/ what Jesus meant by His flock?) and pervert the cause to their own benefit. Wars are caused simply by someone wanting power and making the mass of humanity on his side believe that the other side has wronged them in some terrible way that requires retribution. Religion is just usually a good excuse. I'll have to peek at my capture file for any more goodies... =========== From: DELPHI To: JONBOY Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/09/90 17:36:58 Message Number 4390 Hello. I've seen the male and female qualities references. I'm thinking this is because they co-opted Yawaeh from the Goddess concept, making him a god of power and domininion. According to Diane Stein, a writer, the Hebrew god was a woman, traced as Iahu-Anat by Elizabeth Gould Davis (who, by the way, was a librarian at Selby before she died.) During patriarchal takeover, the Jewish Yahweh was also once the hunter god-consort of Anat, known as Baal. Anyway, eventually you know the stor y. =========== From: DELPHI To: TURTLE Subject: IBMs Date & Time: 05/09/90 17:46:35 Message Number 4391 Would like to hear more about why you say to avoid IBM clones. Looks lik like I need one anyway for work, but I need to stay informed. I won't get rid of this CP/M, because my father wants to try it out. By the way, I'm enjoying the dialog here even tho some days I just can't get to the computer for play. Thanks. =========== From: DONTHEN To: KEN OBER Subject: ack! Date & Time: 05/09/90 18:23:37 Message Number 4393 Ah ha! You found the magic boner in PBBS! Backslash characters signify end-of-line to the message printing routine. Yes, it /is/ kind of annoying. It apparently has something to do with the way Microsoft FORTRAN compilers work (that being the language PBBS is written in.) Incidentally, that's why there were never any backslashes in the intro screens here or on Wyvern's Den, even in places where you'd think they'd make sense.... =========== From: DONTHEN To: TURTLE Subject: Intel IAPX86 Date & Time: 05/09/90 18:26:30 Message Number 4394 > You could run another BBS program under it with relative ease... Kinda sorta. Other systems would have their own separate userlog, making people log on twice, wouldn't respect any of ERAC's own system variables and probably wouldn't let people get back to ERACS /or/ exit to ERACS when they logged off, since in a non-ERACS environment that would mean plopping them onto the DOS prompt. Also, most BBS's have their own modem I/O drivers in them which could interfere with ERACS' drivers. You'd still need to do some hefty modification to make an existing BBS run under ERACS, and without source code, it would make all the PBBSH modifications to date seem trivial. =========== From: RUFUS To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: rOAD rALLY..... Date & Time: 05/09/90 19:06:00 Message Number 4396 >Insight into how to do the next one.....watch for it!!!! Use letters instead of numbers. =========== From: RUFUS To: JONBOY Subject: Deal Date & Time: 05/09/90 19:16:15 Message Number 4397 ProTERM was done by Checkmate Technologies or some such company. One of these days I'll put up my BBS. After I get a serial card and a modem, and Bart Fox helps me destroy GBBS. =========== From: YNGLING To: BLACK MAGIC Subject: :) the sequel Date & Time: 05/09/90 20:04:11 Message Number 4398 Dear Lady, _____________________________________________________________________ [ the line you requested ] I read your message on Courts of Chaos re: borrowing books. Which science fiction titles are you interested in borrowing? We had only discussed A Box Full of Hell, but I'll gladly loan you any titles I have that you'd like to read. Let me know. The Yngling :) P.S. The case is going well...working my rear off (even had to miss Snakebyte's Rally which I wasnt too pleased about...but going well. =========== From: YNGLING To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: please... Date & Time: 05/09/90 20:15:43 Message Number 4399 C.P.U., Thanks. I had these weird mental pictures of a Rambo-esque assault on an adobe church (complete with bell) with amazing pyrotechnics. I'm glad to hear it was something much less violent and with good reason. The Yngling =========== From: KEN OBER To: TURTLE Subject: uummm.... Date & Time: 05/09/90 20:29:11 Message Number 4401 Maybe I won't be riding with you and Watts -- Rufus says he's goiing to take me now....ANd it would be better, since I won't be so pressed for time on Friday...So, I guess I'm riding with him... ACK! I THINK! hehehehhe -- If anything changes, I'll scream real loud and slam my head somewhere..... I finally caught up with you at work! I go there enough! Youy look abnormally normal when you're working! :) Hey, can you clean the heads of my V-8 Camcorder? I can't find anything to do it that costs under a few bucks! c-'Ya l8r! -TRR- =========== From: TURTLE To: KEN OBER Subject: . Date & Time: 05/10/90 00:47:11 Message Number 4402 What do you mean "I look abnormally normal-looking?" Fox says I look distressingly like a McDonald's person, which is distressing because, well, I'm...a McDonald's person. Woo! Anyway, I wouldn't try to clean the heads of the camcorder without one of those funky cleaning tapes, because you have to take the goddamn thing apart and take the shell off the head assembly to do it by hand, and I don't have a set of jewelers' screwdrivers any more. *sigh* If you bring it over sometime, I'll try (again) to fix the viewfinder, though... If you can get a ride w/Rufus, that will save Watts and I some aggravation, since we're likely to be /real/ pressed for time on Friday. Cia0, d00d... --A pressed Turtle =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Mania Date & Time: 05/10/90 00:53:59 Message Number 4403 Pity the "religion causes wars" thing disappointed you--I was simply using that to counter Chip's "but see all the good Christianity has done!" I think it's a mistake to assume that religion per se does not lead to all sorts of strife; /any/ self-replicating belief system is going eventually to be responsible for a good deal of uncivility, Human nature being what it is. Here's the problem: #define Belief_System $foo; Begin S1: People who do not believe in $foo will burn in hell; S2: It is your duty to prevent suffering; S3 ... Sn; End A correlary of S1 and S2 is that in order to prevent suffering, it is your obligation to make people accept $foo, regardless of the cost (after all, isn't it worth a little awkwardness now if you can prevent everlasting torment?) Another correlary is that if someone refuses to accept $foo, then it doesn't really matter what you do to him; after all, he's damned anywat, right? (Both these lines of reasoning were very popular during the middle ages, in fact.) Another problem arises when two incompatible belief systems, $foo and $bar (Christianity and Islam, say) have S1 and S2 in common but differ in statements 3 to n...because each side will feel obligated to spread the Word, whatever trhe cost, and both sides will soon start feeling very frustrated...and angry...and...well, bad things happen. It's not really accurate to say "Christianity causes problems when greedy people try to use it to get [whatever];" exclusive belief systems can intrinsically cause conflict, even if the statements contained in those belief systems instruct its adherents to be nice to other people. --A self-unreplicating Turtle =========== From: TURTLE To: DELPHI Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/10/90 01:02:55 Message Number 4404 I'd feel very uncomfortable trying to defend the premiss that the Hebrew god was a variant on the Goddess, simply because the Hebrew religion is a desert religion that arose almost completely in isolation and did not start to incorporate the ideas of Wicca and other Celtic pagan beliefs until /after/ it had started spreading throughout Europe, at about the time of the death of Christ. The New Testament contains several ideas that are clearly taken from the animistic pagan religions popular in Europe during the first century or so AD, but going back farther than that we see a more old-style war-god conception of the Hebrew diety that's fairly typical of desert religions in general (as an interesting side note, why is it that harsh climates invariably breed monotheistic religions and more temperate climates breed polytheistic and animistic belief systems?). Trying to forcibly interpret the Old Testament in terms of goddess worship is at best naive (and looking back, I see I've manages to split an infinitive in this sentence, too...*sigh*). --An irreverant Turtle =========== From: TURTLE To: DELPHI Subject: IBMs Date & Time: 05/10/90 01:08:57 Message Number 4405 Well, in a nutshell, the reasons I don't like IBM clones are: * They're generally poorly designed, and their bus architecture is a nightmare; * They're slower than they have any right to be; * They are built around mediocre IAPX86-family microprocessors; * Their operating system, an obnoxious CP/M hack, was primitive by 1984 standards and is still klunky, awkward, and underpowered even four versions later; * IBM applications programs generally require obscene amounts of free memory to perform even the simplest of tasks; * They are victims not only of poor design but in many ways of poor /conception/--lacking the features found even in modern 8-bit systems; * They're overpriced (although peripherals for them are, thankfully, dirt-cheap); * They are only minimally functional for any sort of sophisticated I/O; * A great deal of IBM software, even commercial $500 software packages, is sooo klunky and awkward it's hard to imagine that anyone is even reluctantly willing to put up with it; * The systems in both software and hardware are relatively inflexible, again even from modern 8-bit machine's standpoints; * They are riddled with a staggering number of kludges, hacks, and misfeatures that nobody seems willing to rectify. Other than that, I don't have any /real/ problems with IBM-type machines; get rid of some of those problems and you'd be left with a workable, if somewhat mediocre, computer. (If you'd like me to elaborate on any or all of the above, I'd be more than happy to, although it might end up getting me crucified...:) ) --An obliging Turtle =========== From: TURTLE To: DONTHEN Subject: Intel IAPX86 Date & Time: 05/10/90 01:20:29 Message Number 4406 That's why you write your own ERACS BBS system, dip. (ERACS is by far the most powerful BBS package I've seen to date for micros--which probably explains why it's only available for two operating systems, TRSDOS and UNIX--but, Lordy, does its bulletin board ever suck eggs!) =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: DELPHI Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/10/90 08:16:47 Message Number 4407 Dear Delphi, Forgive me for calling Adonai "he." Unfortunately, there is no pronoun in English for gender-neutral people (or hermaphroditic people.) Adonai is, of course, beyond gender -- and it was inaccurate for me to call the Divine One "He." Also, I agree with the feminist concept of continuums, not dualities -- for some dualities. Simplistically, there are "goods" which are "greater goods" than others, and there are "evils" that are "lesser evils" than others. (I don't believe in breaking all dualities into lesser and greater.) However, I do not see how having a God (or Goddess) separate from time and space is necessarily logically related to a patriarchal view of the world. I will grant that in many cases, having one belief correlates to having the other. But I don't see how it follows that one implies the other. Covering more ground, again, I don't see how our limitations to three dimensions or five (six? confusing.) senses necessarily means that we will observe polarities. I believe it has more to do with ancient lawmakers deciding what was "right" and what was "wrong" -- and this beig simplified over the ages. Laws have always supported a limited form of continuums: one doesn't kill another for stealing a nickel. Why do I believe that this is reality, and not the dream plane? Continuousness. Although every time when I wake up here, it is always the same, there is no continuousness to my dreams. What I remember are disjoint views of entirely different, unconnected worlds. (Of course, no assumptions can be made about "what is reality?" Reality is what it is -- regardless of reason.) Is the Earth a living, breathing entity? Is the Earth alive? for me, one of the definitions of life is that it attempts to change its surroundings for its own, personal good. (Patriarchal? Probably.) =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: DELPHI Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/10/90 08:41:07 Message Number 4408 Plants attempt to draw nutrients from the soil, and some use poison to discourage competition from other plants. Ants have fantastic communication networks to build their hives. Conservationists try to save the planet, that it might be livable in the future. However, I have never observed a rock -- or a crystal -- attempting to better its own surroundings. Is there power in crystals? I won't touch that one. Is Gaia of the state where she doesn't need to better her surroundings? Nor will I touch that -- but as a good mother, I would expect the Goddess to reproach her human children rather severely. My roomate, who is a feminist, has the book Beyond God the Father -- as soon as I have the chance, I will read it. You're a fascinating person, Delphi. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: TURTLE Subject: real Christians Date & Time: 05/10/90 08:51:55 Message Number 4409 Dear Turtle, Either the God described by the Bible is 100% correct -- or it is not. If it is not perfectly correct, then those claims are false. I'll freely admit that it might be that the "actual" god (the Big Fellah in the Sky) might be a bit off (he/she/it/they might have a flowing red beard instead of a white one) -- but even the slightest change would make those claims of exclusiveness WRONG. Yes, Jesus did speak about "different flocks" -- but, in context, it seemed that he was talking about preaching to the non-Jews. (This was a radical idea for the time...) Not that of creating many other religions. Can there be a religion that is not recognizably Christian, but would qualify under God's eyes? I don't know -- I'm not God. What I do know is that, within a very few guidelines, there is an incredible diversity of what could be called recognizably Christian. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: TURTLE Subject: Intel IAPX86 Date & Time: 05/10/90 09:00:23 Message Number 4410 Whispers in the night, hidden sounds, "i love os/2... i love os/2... ibm is my friend... ibm is my friend... i love ms-dos... i love ms-dos... i want windows... i want windows..." hidden sounds, Whispers in the night, while Turtles sleep. =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: JONBOY Subject: No No ! Please Date & Time: 05/10/90 09:02:54 Message Number 4411 Incorrigible punster: do not incorrige. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: JONBOY Subject: Real solutions Date & Time: 05/10/90 09:05:21 Message Number 4412 Dear JonBoy, Are you assuming that "liberal" means "wrong"? Also, are you saying that it has been "scientifically proven" that the Earth was created in six days -- like Genesis 1 says? Does the Bible contradict itself? Let's examine the first contra- diction in the Bible: Genesis 1 and 2. In Genesis 1, man and woman were both created on the sixth day, the last beings to be created. (Gen. 1:24-27). In Genesis 2, it seems to say that man was created before woman ("When the Lord God made the earth and the heavens -- and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up...the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breated into his nostrils the breath of life") BEFORE He created the plants. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: JONBOY Subject: Mania Date & Time: 05/10/90 09:13:33 Message Number 4413 Dear Jonboy, Thanks. I'm enjoying the debate. Though I've rarely seen anyone become converted due to any religious debates, it helps me learn how others view the world. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: YNGLING Subject: please... Date & Time: 05/10/90 09:17:11 Message Number 4414 Speaking about adobe churches... One of the most amazing things in San Miguel is the cathedral in the center of town. A Mexican had seen a picture postcard of a Gothic cathedral, and he thought it would be a Really Neat Idea to have one in his town. Unschooled in architecture, he drew the plans for a cathedral... and he knew enough rich people in town to have it built. The first miracle was that it stood. The second is that it's existed for so long. (It's now over 100 years old.) It's still exactly as ugly as ever -- but it's in use. If I ever were to be Ramboesque about a church, it might be that one. Antonio Gaudi would have been proud of it. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: TURTLE Subject: Mania Date & Time: 05/10/90 09:22:11 Message Number 4415 Dear Turtle, Aha! Douglas Hfstadter's meme has sunk into your brain. His meme says something like this: 1. You will use the idea of self-replicating sentences to explain religions and other ideas. 2. To not do so is untruthful, and one must always be truthful. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: KEN OBER To: ALL Subject: THE BBS Date & Time: 05/10/90 13:07:31 Message Number 4417 Yes, we're BACK! We used to be REMOTE CONTROL! but now we're better! The ABRACADABRA BBS is /now/ ONLINE! Please call -- This is a temporary setup, but it does have message bases -- We have a few messages online already! I am using the 2400 modem, but the BBS runs only at 1200 baud -- All those who had problems connecting before, please try again -- ALl problems are now fixed... CALL SNAKEBYTE, TURTLE, DONTHEN, CHIP, and BLACK MAGIC!!!! 813/378-2218 8-N-1-1200 -Ken Ober- =========== From: SAURON To: TURTLE Subject: Binkley Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:18:16 Message Number 4418 Yes, Spanish Inquisition is close to the mark, but without even the redeeming value of Castillian Nuns with batches of Sangria to revive flagging interogatees and fan their brows with the breeze of flapping oversize breasts confined by designer-pushup bras ...you get the idea. =========== From: SAURON To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: What I'm doing. Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:23:23 Message Number 4419 These biblical quotes and moral messages on a general-purpose BBS tend to become tiresome. Evangelism has it's place, (I guess) somewhere, but not here. Turtle - if I'm out of line, saying that, just say so. =========== From: SAURON To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: Hey.. Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:27:06 Message Number 4420 Okay Corwyn, I (for one) will take you up on it, and call later tonight. "A good BBS is a terrible thing to waste" =========== From: SAURON To: ACAPULCO Subject: What I'm doing. Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:30:24 Message Number 4421 AMEN...(so to speak) =========== From: SAURON To: YNGLING Subject: game-theory Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:32:04 Message Number 4422 -W.C. Fields on his deathbed, reading the Bible... "...just looking for loopholes..." =========== From: SAURON To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: thermodynamics Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:37:26 Message Number 4423 Tigers in tanks? far too recent to be of signifigance. Might as well say "Winston tastes good..." How about, "...Mommie puts it in my milk for extra energeeeee." =========== From: SAURON To: TURTLE Subject: They hate... Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:43:30 Message Number 4424 Christians are uncomfortable about being blame for so many of the world's woes, but fact is-Europe has been the dominant area of the planet for 300 years now, and Europe has been predominantly Christian in make up. Need any more data on why the world's screwed up? =========== From: SAURON To: KEN OBER Subject: You Dweeb... Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:49:03 Message Number 4425 What's with this "Dweeb" shit, you asshole. If I need advice from you, I'll ask for it. Keep your name-calling to a minimum, unless you want it returned to you with interest. =========== From: SAURON To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: 286: Stone Age Date & Time: 05/10/90 15:53:34 Message Number 4426 I cannot get into another hardware battle because I have mixed emotions. I sold my Commodore 128 recently (which is a GREAT machine in many ways) and I am not terribly impressed with the 286 clone I put together, but where was I supposed to go? 8-bit is doomed and all but obsolete. Anyone who buys anything built by Apple is a candidate for really bad land-purchases...and the Amiga, while a great machine, (I wanted an A-2000) is getting into the Apple realm of overpriced stuff. (unless you buy the toy A-500 version, which Tyler did.) So I opted for a middle of the road 286 clone. It was my decision, and I don't need abuse from 16-yr. olds about it. =========== From: BLACK MAGIC To: TURTLE Subject: ... Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:22:31 Message Number 4427 Hi love. Good news....my doctor called at school...I went into remission again! Or at least I'm getting there! My blood count is getting healthier....and I'm getting happier... Trace =========== From: C.C.A. To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Real solutions Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:28:13 Message Number 4428 But why can't they die without human help?? =========== From: C.C.A. To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:30:25 Message Number 4429 God had to send Satan somewhere until his redemption plan could run it's course. It is true that God allows evil, but that evil will be punished. =========== From: C.C.A. To: YNGLING Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:39:24 Message Number 4430 It took a lot more than 'spoon-fed' religion(sp?) to make me feel the way I do. It took almost being put in jail to realize who I had been worshiping all these years. I found that you can either serve God or Satan, one or the other, not both and not neither. A 'Non-Worship' state of mind is a crock of sh*t. you are just letting Satan control of your life. =========== From: C.C.A. To: YNGLING Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:49:27 Message Number 4431 It's not our place to question, but to obey. =========== From: C.C.A. To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:52:58 Message Number 4432 There might be a connection. =========== From: C.C.A. To: TURTLE Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:54:26 Message Number 4433 Why can't we try to do both? I'm only 15 and I'm already going to heaven, so why can't I spend the rest of my life making the world better?? =========== From: C.C.A. To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/10/90 16:57:26 Message Number 4434 Then it will be too late. =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Xnty... Date & Time: 05/10/90 20:45:24 Message Number 4436 Don't create your own.. Go for Bokononism.. a ready made, perfect religion. Vonnegut already did the dirty work for you. - Corwyn P.S. You could also raise fund to recover the "lost" "Books of Bokonon" =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Pizza=God Date & Time: 05/10/90 20:49:46 Message Number 4437 I would.. but the shallowness of my pocketbook, and the depth of my card account have been forcing me to partake of the Morrison Swill.. if only they'd serve a 2:00(am) snack! - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: TURTLE Subject: New Subject Date & Time: 05/10/90 20:55:59 Message Number 4438 I don't understand the command line philosophy.. simply have menus.. THAT YOU CAN INTERRUPT.. It's a little more difficult to write than opus or PCboard style command stacking, but it's worth it! You can do very self explanetory menus, and simply let people go wherever they want more quickly than Opus with /no/ menus. I think it's probably been a month or two since I saw all of one of Frank's menu's on The Cutting Board.. he kept the commands intuitive, and made the structure logical.. how hard is that? (Well, you say.. /your/ board isn't consistent.) My board isn't consistent because I haven't gotten around to fixing that yet. Anyway.. I like Hotkey menus... AND completely programmable menus. - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: TURTLE Subject: Intel IAPX86 Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:01:47 Message Number 4439 Go for it.. just make copies of this for those "AAARRGGHHH.. it's eating the userlist and saving the message base as the password list!" moments. It's dark out and I'm not getting any more coherent.. scary. - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: JONBOY Subject: Foo Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:05:23 Message Number 4440 Geesh.. even in the middle ages, they'd only cut out your tongue for lying.. not kill you. =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Intel IAPX86 Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:15:19 Message Number 4441 OS/2 - 20,000 copies sold. Windows - 20,000 copies sold a month! If you're gonna use one or the other.. which sounds better? - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: SAURON Subject: 286: Stone Age Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:20:43 Message Number 4442 > It was my decision, and I don't need abuse from 16-yr. olds about it. Huh? What's this relevant to? - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: C.C.A. Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:22:25 Message Number 4443 > I've found that you can serve God or Satan, one or the other, not both > not neither. This is the biggest heap of shit I've heard in a while! I DO NOT serve God.. but where the hell do you get off saying I serve Satan? The whole concept is ridiculous beyond belief. How can you substantiate this claim? Or is this simply another spew of mindless dogma? - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: C.C.A. Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:25:48 Message Number 4444 > It's not our place to question, but to obey. Oooohhhh! Now /that's/ truly pitiful! You're obeying words written 2000 years ago.. how can they possibly understand your life better than you can? Why bother having a life if you're not going to control it.. and are simply doing what a book (or God direct, for that matter) tells you? "Jesus loves me, yes I know, because the bible tells me so." Gag, puke, retch.. mindless conformism is disgusting. - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: C.C.A. Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:29:37 Message Number 4445 If you admit that Believing in the christian doctrine make your life miserable, why do you continue such masochism? - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: C.C.A. Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/10/90 21:30:52 Message Number 4446 > Then it will be too late. How do you know.. really this is getting silly. - Corwyn =========== From: RAVEN To: RUFUS Subject: Gee..... Date & Time: 05/10/90 22:18:34 Message Number 4447 I saw one (modem) cheap and working at the hackers garage sale, but they (both) of them sold in the first hour, and as I did not need one I did not buy one. I will let you know if I locate an inexpensive one. =========== From: DONTHEN To: KEN OBER Subject: THE BBS Date & Time: 05/11/90 00:03:58 Message Number 4449 > CALL SNAKEBYTE, TURTLE, DONTHEN, CHIP and BLACK MAGIC!!!! I'm already calling Turtle. I /am/ Donthen, and I don't have any of the other three people's phone numbers. =========== From: DONTHEN To: SAURON Subject: 286: Stone Age Date & Time: 05/11/90 00:06:30 Message Number 4450 How about abuse from other sysops? Zilog still sells more of their Z80 8-bit family chips (Z80A/B/H, Z84C00/01, Z180 and the Z8 dedicated controllers) than all of Intel's chips put together, from their 8-bit 8088's to the 32-bit 386/486 beasts. 8-bit is only truly "obsolete" if you're a power user... a Z180 or HD64180 (the Hitachi equivalent, and the sucker the Wyvern's Den ran on) can run at 9 MHz and address 512K, and has two 38400 bps serial ports, a two-stage timer and a two-channel DMA controller on chip. Even its 6 MHz version runs rings around most 286 systems when it comes to actually doing anything useful (as opposed to benchmarks testing how fast the CPU can count backwards from 32768 by 4's). It all depends on what you want to do; if not being compatible with "industry standard software" doesn't bother you, then there's no reason to go MS-DOS. I have come to peace with MS-DOS systems; for a lot of things, they'd be cost-effective. But on the whole, if I was going to get a 16-bit (or 32-bit) system, I'd get an Amiga or--yes--a Macintosh IIcx first. I'd want a computer that could do things my 8-bit system /can't/ do, not just one that can do the same things a little faster or do it a little slower with Brand Name Software. =========== From: DONTHEN To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: New Subject Date & Time: 05/11/90 00:19:12 Message Number 4451 Actually, hotkey menus are considerably /less/ difficult to program than a true command stack. PBBS may not have them because the development language Pat McDonald, the original author, chose was (inexplicably) FORTRAN, and FORTRAN doesn't really deal with characters very well at all. I like hotkeys, although they can be fairly dangerous beasts if you're not careful in setting them up (like PBBS's goodbye without confirm routine). As Turtle just reminded me, ERACS doesn't use command stacking per se, it uses /commands/, i.e., the same way a DOS prompt does. The commands are, in fact, commands to its parser and are usually translated to DOS commands or passed to LS-DOS directly. When you log onto an ERACS system, you're literally logging onto the remote computer, in the same way you'd be logging onto a remote Unix system. =========== From: TURTLE To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:14:47 Message Number 4452 >Is there power in crystals? I won't touch that one. Chip, Chip, Chip. Of /course/ there is power in crystals; properly cut, they are electrically resonant at very narrow frequencies, and are therefore good for making precision oscillators. Of course, if by "power" you mean "the ability to heal people and make everything wonderful forever," well, if a 36.271828KHz sine wave can heal people and make everything wonderful forever, sure. Just wearing a crystal around your neck isn't gonna do it, though; it's kinda like a primitive tribesman wearing a piece of a field containment generator around his neck because such devices have power. --A crystalline Turtle =========== From: TURTLE To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Intel IAPX86 Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:19:14 Message Number 4453 >i love ms-dos...i want windows... A little Mac envy there, Chip? =========== From: TURTLE To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Mania Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:22:04 Message Number 4454 I see you've been infected with the "meme" meme too...although I was describing Christianity as a self-replicating system, not a self-replicating sentence, and I was doing so by means of an abstraction rather than present the self-replicating structure /as/ Christianity. But other than that, yeah...except perhaps that not to view Christianity in that fashion is not necessarily untruthful. --A non-replicant Turtle Thpth! =========== From: TURTLE To: SAURON Subject: They hate... Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:28:02 Message Number 4455 Of course, it could be worse...Europe could be both a predominant world power /and/ Shi'ite Muslim...one of the nastier of the nasty desert religions to come along in a while. =========== From: TURTLE To: C.C.A. Subject: Real Far Out Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:31:45 Message Number 4456 >But why can't they die without human help?? WHAT?????? Hey, dude, not to ask stupid questions, but what the /hell/ (pardon the pun) are you talking about?? =========== From: TURTLE To: C.C.A. Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:33:13 Message Number 4457 >A 'Non-Worship' state of mind is just a crock of sh*t, you are just >letting Satan control of your life. You realize, of course, that that argument is totally invalid if the person you're talking to doesn't buy into your cosmology to begin with. How do you know that Islam isn't the true religion of God, and that by being a Christian you are blindly following a false religion created by Satan? For that matter, how do you know that your conception of God and Satan are valid to begin with? (For your information, most modern Christian theologians have pretty much dismissed the idea that such an entity as Satan even exists...) --A Turtle who doesn't buy any of it =========== From: TURTLE To: C.C.A. Subject: Real beanheads Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:36:32 Message Number 4458 >It's not our place to question, but to obey. What a wonderful sheep you are. You know, I bet you're the sort of person every Adolf Hitler wanna-be has wet dreams about. By the way, did you know you just stated the central dogma of Islam? The word "Islam" means "To Obey," and the word "Muslim" means "one who submits [to the will of God]." Are you sure you've found the right religion? I think you might be happier with something less...intellectual than Christianity. =========== From: TURTLE To: C.C.A. Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:41:21 Message Number 4459 >I'm only 15 and I'm already going to heaven... That should be a bumper sticker. =========== From: TURTLE To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: Nusubject (tm) Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:42:38 Message Number 4460 >I don't understand the command line philosophy... Welcome to LU-BBS. BBS version 1.7, Command Processor version 2[A].3 @LOGIN FWVEAUX Password: @SET PROMPT --> -->INFORMATION BBS-NEWS The latest system bulletin: LU-BBS has undergone a new revision. The BBOARD area now supports full TOPS-20 style command processing, including "?" intercepts, and has added two new commands, QUICKSCAN and TITLE_SEARCH, which are self-explanatory. -->INFORMATION PRIVELEGES Username: FWVEAUX Wheel Operator System_Maintenance -->BBOARD [Loading] [B]-->READ NEW THAT'S command-oriented BBSing. Any questions? =========== From: TURTLE To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: Sing along! Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:50:20 Message Number 4461 (Come on, you all know the words) Jesus loves me, this I know For the babble tells me so... I have at least a modicum of respect for people who form their own ideas about religion and can support their religious views in a rational, thoughtful manner. Sheep annoy me. =========== From: TURTLE To: ALL Subject: Something else Date & Time: 05/11/90 02:54:05 Message Number 4462 Well, here I am, back from another day of work, which in my case means working a drive-through at a McDonalds and dealing with people who can't figure out: I. Yes, you have to stop at the speaker to place an order. A. It's the little stand with the "STOP Place Order Here" sign B. Yes, you have to stop NEXT to it. C. No, I won't know you're there if you miss by even a couple dozen yards. II. No, we don't have hot dogs. A. McDonald's has /never/ sold hot dogs. 1. No, we don't advertise them on TV, either. B. Wendy's has hot dogs. 1. No, this isn't Wendy's. a. That's why the menu says "McDonsld's." III. If you want an order of french fries, you need to specify what /size/ an order you'd like. A. We have three. 1. They're "large," "medium," and "small." 2. The cheapest ones are the "small." Then comes "meduim," then "large." B. Yes, that also goes for drinks. IV. Yes, our Big Macs are on sale. A. That's why the center of the menu is dominated by the "Big Macs 99 cents" sign. 1. It's similar to the huge sign in the front of the store. 2. Yes, they're on sale for 99 cents. B. No, our quarter pounders aren't also on sale. 1. They're not Big Macs. 2, No, they aren't "close enough." V. Ordering a Happy Meal is more involved than saying "I wanna Happy Meal." A. We have three kinds. 1. They're listed on the big picture on the menu board. a. Yes, we have all three kinds. b. No, they're not the same thing. c. No, I can't read your mind. B. They come with a drink. 1. Yes, you get to pick which drink. a. Are you /sure/ you want coffee with that?? b. Okay... 2. Yes, the drink is included in the price. a. That's why the picture says "Purchase price includes drink" b. Oh look, it says the same thing on the box! =========== From: TURTLE To: ALL Subject: Con't Date & Time: 05/11/90 03:05:19 Message Number 4463 VII. No, we don't have Dr. Pepper. A. We have Coke, Diet, Sprite, and Orange. 1. No, we also don't have 7-up. 2. No, we /also/ don't have root beer. 3. No, we don't have Mr. Pibb either. a. That's because we have Coke, Diet, Sprite, and Orange. i. Yes, that means no Pepsi. ii. You got it--no Mountain Dew, either. b. I don't care /what/ Burger King has! B. No, you can't "forget it and get a beer." VIII. Now that you've placed your order, you need to drive up to the window to pay for it. A. Yes, that means you have to move. 1. Foot off brake 2. Foot on accelerator a. Not too hard, now... b. Mind that curve! i. Yes, you /do/ have to go around the curve. B. No, I won't walk out there and give you the order. Honestly, the thought that these people, who are honestly and truly incapable of placing an order at McDonald's, have the right to vote in national elections terrifies me. =========== From: DM2 To: TURTLE Subject: Something else Date & Time: 05/11/90 05:22:26 Message Number 4464 LOL!!!!! My dad used to be a postman, and he would *always* eat at McDonalds... he told me that EVERY day, during lunch, they would ask him if he wanted a Pie... and he HATED pies... for five years, every day he would say "no" to the Pie question... . . Tell me, please... are McDonalds employees as sadistic as I'm told they are? . . ---a curious DM =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: DONTHEN Subject: New Subject Date & Time: 05/11/90 07:56:13 Message Number 4465 Like a RCP/M system.. I know the concept.. but for most things it doesn't seem particularly advantageous.. if you want let people do raw directories.. have a menu option for it, I think the main drawback of current BBS systems is the message handling.. you should try Magpie.. Sota's new BBS, it seems to address some of the problems, of course they managed to make file handling clunky as hell, but nothings perfect. P.S. Magpie runs under Unix. - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: TURTLE Subject: Intel IAPX86 Date & Time: 05/11/90 08:00:33 Message Number 4466 > I love ms-dos...I want MS-Windows.. and I don't want my files to dis- > appear randomly. Definitely /not/ Mac-Envy, everybody know Mac users /want/ their Operationg System to lose half thier files. - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: TURTLE Subject: Nusubject (tm) Date & Time: 05/11/90 08:04:43 Message Number 4467 Sure.. but I still don't quite see the reason not to have interruptible menus.. on my own system, it would annoy me, however when I'm callihg another system long distance, it's always nice to have exactly what I can and can't do spelled out for me. Of course I don't want to /have/ to wait for the menus.. that's why I like interruptable menus w/ hotkeys. - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: TURTLE Subject: Sing along! Date & Time: 05/11/90 08:06:56 Message Number 4468 I've always wanted to lead a "sheep shearing" movement. Then we'd /know/ that all the bald guys are mindless idiots. - Corwyn =========== From: DONTHEN To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: New Subject Date & Time: 05/11/90 08:25:29 Message Number 4469 It depends on how it's set up. I've seen some RCP/M systems set up pretty nicely, especially remote Z-System type ones -- the file system can be set up as a point-and-shoot menu where you tag the files you want on-screen and download them all with YMODEM Batch or ZMODEM. The only drawback (assuming you've got it set up so people can't type ERA *.*, which would be a serious drawback indeed) is that it won't directly store a long description of the file in the directory; there's usually a separate text file called FOR.TXT or something like that which lists all of them, or you can type "FOR Q_264.ZIP" and get the system to respond with an appropriate description like "It's QuickBBS 2.64, bozo, what do you think?". This really doesn't make things any more difficult when it comes right down to it, but I suspect it would still be beyond a dismaying number of users. =========== From: DONTHEN To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: Nusubject (tm) Date & Time: 05/11/90 08:29:56 Message Number 4470 The only problem with hotkeys is line noise, or pressing the wrong key and having it go to the wrong menu. Turtle will spew about this at great length, although I think they're fairly trivial complaints.... =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: DONTHEN Subject: The Bart Fox Date & Time: 05/11/90 11:44:27 Message Number 4471 Watts- Before you take off for Orlando, (if you get this message first), could ya PUH-LEEZE pick up the stuffed fox? Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: OASIS 3 FEN Subject: Not going... Date & Time: 05/11/90 11:45:54 Message Number 4472 For those who were expecting to take the Green Bitch to Orlando this weekend... I'm not going. Too much work to take off for a sci-fi convention. Have fun, all -- and yip at Juan Alfonzo for me. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: KEN OBER Subject: THE BBS Date & Time: 05/11/90 11:47:40 Message Number 4473 Dear Ken, Tried calling early this morning. Your BBS simply typed +++ ATH at me. Was it something I said? Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: SAURON Subject: What I'm doing. Date & Time: 05/11/90 11:49:58 Message Number 4474 Dear Mr. Sauron, Your remark was ENTIRELY out of place. Not only did it show extreme lack of interest in the general conversation, it had nothing whatsoever to do with my message. First of all, there were no Biblical quotes in message #4272. The only Biblical quote that I gave recently was to contradict the "normal" stance of the Church against abortion: I found a verse which supported the right to abortion. Secondly, most of my messages previous to that one have been showing the faults of Christianity. This is directly OPPOSITE to the idea of evangelism. There has been a lively discussion about religious topics in general on this board, with everyone taking different viewpoints. I see not a single reason why religion shouldn't be discussed on an open BBS. If you don't like it, please skip over any messages that have to do with religion. One question: what, precisely gives you the right to say which topics should and should not be discussed on an "open" BBS? The peeved Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: SAURON Subject: They hate... Date & Time: 05/11/90 11:59:17 Message Number 4475 Yes. Of course. Saying there's a correlation between shoe size and how well one does on a certain test might be completely true -- but misleading. (The younger one is, the smaller the shoes... and usually smaller shoes are only worn by much younger people.) You're trying to prove the statement: Christianity is responsible for the world's woes. You say that Europe has been the dominant area of the planet for 300 years, and Europe is predominantly Christian. Okay -- now, two questions: Is Europe really "messing up" the world -- or was the world messed up to begin with -- and Europe only slightly modified the chaos? Secondly, even if Europe is the sole cause of the chaos in the world, must it be Europe's RELIGION that causes it to screw up the world? You've got one hell of a lot left to prove. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: C.C.A. Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/11/90 12:08:36 Message Number 4476 Dear C.C.A., >God had to send Satan somewhere until his redemption plan could run >its course. It is true that God allows evil, but that evil will be >punished. Bad, bad philosophy. Several questions for you to mull over: 1. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, why did God create Satan in the first place? Adonai must have known how Satan would fall. 2. If God is all-good, how could the Lord have created a being that could have fallen? (Please: don't resond simply with "free will." Couldn't God have created Satan with free will -- but still have not fallen?) 3. Why did God allow -- first Satan, then Humanity -- to fall? Why did God WANT to make the redemption plan? Why didn't God simply create Humanity so that it would not fall into sin? These questions have been mulled over since the Middle Ages... Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: C.C.A. Subject: Question Date & Time: 05/11/90 12:16:43 Message Number 4477 >It is not our place to question, but to obey. Oh, no... This is precisely what I've been fighting within the Christian Church for the past three years. Do you realize the effects of that philosophy? I'm speaking to you as a brother in Christ, here. I'm not attacking you. The ONLY person you should obey is Christ, and Christ alone. I've seen too many people who espouse that philosophy be completely taken. (Re-read my message about Pastor Bill.) Too many people gladly take your money, time, or efforts "in the name of God" -- and then abuse your trust. I instinctively mistrust anyone who claims to be doing something "in the will of God" -- and then immediately asks me for something. God commands us to question every spirit to see if it's from God. (Sauron, please abort this message, now. I might begin quoting from the Bible.) Throughout the Old Testament, people asked the messengers from God for a sign to show they're from God. As good Christians, we must constantly question our pastor's teaching to see if it's completely from the Word of God. Blind acceptance will not do. Complete obediance to God is wonderful. Be sure that it's not someone else's ego trip that you're really following. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: Xnty... Date & Time: 05/11/90 12:27:06 Message Number 4478 Hmmm... haven't read that Vonnegut book. Which one is it? Personally, I'd prefer to base one around Mike's from Stranger in a Strange Land. Not much in the way of a message, as I can't make things not with my mind, but the sexual part would be wonderful/ Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: Intel IAPX86 Date & Time: 05/11/90 12:29:59 Message Number 4479 Os/2 or Windows -- which would I use? Os/2, of course. It's a lot less useful, but at least it takes up much more memory. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/11/90 12:34:03 Message Number 4480 Dear Corwyn, I have no personal problems with the idea of a person following God. If there's a God, and if God is interested in being followed -- God might choose to have created some people especially to follow him/her/ it/them. My problem is with people who follow people who claim to be following God. If she/they/it/he want followers, then it/he/they/she should ask them directly. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: TURTLE Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/11/90 12:39:36 Message Number 4481 Dear Turtle, What if I said that there have been studies that show that people wearing crystals tend to become sick less than people who don't? (Actually, there probably are such studies -- but I'm making this up off the top of my head. I wouldn't be surprised if it's true.) Of course there's no "power" within crystals that would automatically bestow health, clear thinking, or increased sexual potency to a person. But, psychosomatic effects are REALLY strong -- and they make finding medicines difficult. If wearing a crystal around one's neck makes a person feel healthier, or feel like one has a clearer mind -- then the effect is probably real. But it's due to the belief -- and that's the true power of the crystal. Chip P. Unicorn P.S. I use such things myself. When I have an upset stomach, I generally make chammomile tea. There's a Mexican superstition that that kind of tea is really wonderful for stomach problems. I tried it, had enough faith that it would work -- and, bingo! It worked. =========== From: CHIP P. UNICORN To: TURTLE Subject: Nusubject (tm) Date & Time: 05/11/90 12:49:37 Message Number 4482 >THAT'S command-oriented BBSing. Any questions? Yes. How do we learn the commands in the first place? Other than that, it seems a sensible option. Chip P. Unicorn =========== From: KEN OBER To: SAURON Subject: You Dweeb... Date & Time: 05/11/90 14:15:06 Message Number 4483 Dweeb. =========== From: TURTLE To: DM2 Subject: Something else Date & Time: 05/11/90 15:31:38 Message Number 4484 Well, if you place an order and say "and that's all," you won't be asked if you want a pie...although, to be fair to McDonald's, you probably wouldn't believe how much money suggestive selling generates. About one in three or four people will say "Yeah, go ahead and add a pie/fries/whatever" when you ask... McDonald's people aren't all that sadistic...really. Unless we're having a bad day. =========== From: TURTLE To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: New Subject Date & Time: 05/11/90 15:35:28 Message Number 4485 >...for most things it [an RCP/M] doesn't seem particularly advantageous If you're just running a bulletin board system, it's not. RCP/M's are generally not just BBS systems, though; Z-nodes, for example, let you experiment with new Z software before you download it, run utilities for library and file handling, and all sorts of neat non-BBS functions like that. (There are, in fact, RAS systems floating around with no BBS running at all, or with only very limited message capabilities.) --A remote access Turtle =========== From: TURTLE To: DONTHEN Subject: Nusubject (tm) Date & Time: 05/11/90 15:41:29 Message Number 4486 >Turtle will spew about this at great length... No, Turtle will simply say "Menus are bad." There are places where menus are appropriate--in bad IBM word processors, say--but for serious applications, menus are evil. =========== From: TURTLE To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Nusubject (tm) Date & Time: 05/11/90 15:48:01 Message Number 4487 >How do we learn the commands in the first place? In LU-BBS, type a question mark. It is immediately intercepted (you don't press Return), and presents you with a list of commands (or parameters if you've already typed a command). If you have typed part of a commmand, it will give a list of all the commands that match what you've typed so far, as in: @L? Command, one of the following: Login Logout Length List @LOG? Command, one of the following: Login Logout @LOGIN ? Username @LOGIN _ or, alternately, @I? Command, one of the following: Information @I ? One of the following: Priveleges System_News System_Statistics Userlog @I Priv Username: FWVEAUX Wheel Operator System_Maintenance @ Is easy, n'est pas? =========== From: DM2 To: TURTLE Subject: hehe Date & Time: 05/11/90 16:05:19 Message Number 4488 Not sadistic, eh? Coulda fooled me... ;) =========== From: DELPHI To: TURTLE Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/11/90 17:45:32 Message Number 4489 Trying to interpret the Old Testament into goddess worship isn't my point, because I believe it was the written enforcement of patriarchy. But goddess worship far predates all other religion. To quote Diane Stein in "The Women's Spirituality Book", "...evidence of anthropologist and archeologists indicates that pre-god (goddess) civilizations were both matriarchal and peaceful, and structured far different from today's world. No evidence of human strife or violence has been found in any of the ancient cities of the Near East until late in the third millenium, when patriarchal nomads first invaded. Not restricted to the Near East, the so-called "cradle of civilization," the Golden Age triad of goddess worship, matriarchy and peace extended to Egypt, the Greco-Roman world, Crete, Persia, Britain and Ireland, and to Africa. It isn't that the war-god of the Hebrew tribes was female, but that he originated in Baal, the hunter god-consort of the first Hebrew god, Iahu-Anat or Ashtoreth. She was the great mother, who gained a male consort that grew and overtook her as patriarchy took root. Perhaps your desert theory comes not from the location but the lifestyle of the people, since goddess times were gatherers and agricultural and tribal. I can't remember the rest of what you said and it doesn't show on my screen any longer. =========== From: DELPHI To: TURTLE Subject: IBMs Date & Time: 05/11/90 17:54:37 Message Number 4490 So, what you're saying is that they could be much better computers and cost too much? How horrible is the software? I hate that business needs dictate stuff like this, but maybe it's like speaking an ancient language. You have to be understood -- speak the language. And in my case it seems like people in my field are using IBMs and I have to be able to plug in some way. Right now I sure can't switch disks. Anyway, thanks for the infor. =========== From: DELPHI To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/11/90 17:59:32 Message Number 4491 Wow. This stuff is getting so long I can't read fast enough to remember what we're saying sometimes. Anyway, here goes an attempt at an answer. I wouldn't agree that (what did you say? life? means attempting to better one's surroundings. Gaia would accept life as an active process, I suppose, embracing things as they are as well as change. Who's to say if a rock's surroundings are better because it doesn't attempt to change them than if it would? Who's to say anything's wrong for a rock? For me, I do see the need for some change but would feel myself becoming too (are you ready for this one?) codependent if I tried to change things to make them better for someone else. Now this is hard to resist, becaus even feminists think we know what's good for you. I would say change is necessary in a social system where we strive for equality, for the worth and dignity of every person. That sure isn't the case today. But other things -- things that don't seriously impact others -- must be given to the basic right of each individual. This stuff isn't well thought through, as you can tell. I will be anxious to hear your opinion of active Be-Ing as defined by Mary Daly. Maybe I'll be more clear then, because I'm enjoying our dialog too. =========== From: ACAPULCO To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Real solutions Date & Time: 05/11/90 19:49:48 Message Number 4492 That's easily explained. In the days of the writing of Genesis, no one would dream of thinking plants were beings. Quite a few folk still don't, so where is the contradiction? {Acapulco} =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: DONTHEN Subject: New Subject Date & Time: 05/11/90 20:09:37 Message Number 4493 I assume you could also simply cat the file, seeing all available files (in that area) and the descriptions.. so it ends up almost exacly the same as a bbs listing. You could also run the archive program directly to see what's in the archive.. (to double check the version ect.) I've considered writing a Filedoor clone that would allow you to type in a filespec, and it would give you a list you could narrow it down from, point-and-shoot will only work for ANSI, and even then it would probably be a little slow. A nice feature would be to allow a user to maintain a list of files he want to download as he scrolls through the directory, and keep adding to it, waiting to download until he's seen everything. Have a hotkey (like Ctrl-A or something) that would pop up you current list to add or subtract from. I still might implement it in a door, but the MS-DOS BBS scene is so chaotic now, I'll probably just wait and see if anybody does anything like it internally. BTW in case you don't know, but /do/ care: QuickBBS is dying. USTI has bought the code (yes quick was sold yet again) and they're going to go commercial with a package that has such things as Internal Call Back Verification.. Whoopeee I bet I'll be reading about bugs in that system for the next year.. maybe they'll kill that idea (please?) However, in addition to Remote Access, about 3 other people are writing quickbbs clones, so we'll se what happens. - Corwyn  =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: DONTHEN Subject: Nusubject (tm) Date & Time: 05/11/90 20:21:24 Message Number 4494 Line noise problems are going down, and having a goodbye confirm will usually avoid anything disastrous. Even with quick, ifhe line noise is abominable enough, you /can/ turn hotkeys off.. but I don't think I even implemented the option on my board.. If the line noise is that bad you should be bitching at the phone company.. not wasting your money on my board. - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Xnty... Date & Time: 05/11/90 20:28:37 Message Number 4495 Cat's cradle.. it's a more honest religion than Mike's. It's first assertion is: Religion is all lies! Don't believe any of it. Boko.. boko.. bokooo. NON! - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/11/90 20:31:04 Message Number 4496 Frankly I think if God manifested himself and told me to follow him, I'd simple tell him to go play with himself. Just because somebody created you doesn't give them the right to completely control your life. My parents created me, but they don't own me. - Corwyn =========== From: BEATLE To: YNGLING Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/11/90 22:39:25 Message Number 4497 > Why do you...[assume] that everybody worships "SOMETHING?" I'm a case that you can use to prove your point. I don't neccesarily feel that worship of anything is stupid or wrong, I can get along with- out worshipping something. =========== From: BEATLE To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: rOAD rALLY..... Date & Time: 05/11/90 22:48:26 Message Number 4498 > the next one..... In Bradenton you said? It had better be! I can't wait. Tyler is going to regret all he complained about my not knowing where to go in Sarasota !!!! I know Bradenton! =========== From: BEATLE To: C.C.A. Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/11/90 23:11:49 Message Number 4499 Just curious... Is it some kind of odd nature of yours to be more of a religious fanatic (yoiu haven't spoke of much else since getting on here) in writing than in person?? =========== From: BEATLE To: C.C.A. Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/11/90 23:13:35 Message Number 4500 > you are just letting Satan control of your life. WOAH! Hey, I am in a "Non-Worship" state of mind and I believe /I/ am controlling my life. I don't feel a compelling urge to do bad. As a matter of fact, I have an extreme "good" complex. If I do bad, I feel guilty enough that I could die... =========== From: BEATLE To: TURTLE Subject: Real beanheads Date & Time: 05/11/90 23:23:47 Message Number 4501 >...you [C.C.A.] just stated the central dogma of Islam[.] Oh, great. Now we should find out if he's a Sunni or a Shi'ite. =========== From: BEATLE To: TURTLE Subject: Something else Date & Time: 05/11/90 23:27:37 Message Number 4502 I almost had a heart attack reading that. Oh, by the way, did you know you violated one of the basic rules of outlining?? Yes, that one that says "Any heading with a subheading should have two subheadings." In other words for every "a" there should be a "b". PS the heart attack was from laughing, not anything you might have otherwise been thinking. =========== From: BEATLE To: TURTLE Subject: Con't Date & Time: 05/11/90 23:30:59 Message Number 4503 More good stuff! =========== From: BEATLE To: TURTLE Subject: Something else Date & Time: 05/11/90 23:41:03 Message Number 4504 Ken Ober said that he pulled up and saw you at the McDonalds. At first he didn't recognize your voice over the speaker. I don't know how that could happen, anyway, it sounded like an interesting experience. I think it would make a great trip for some of us someday... right up to the take-out window to see a Turtle at work. =========== From: CRYSTAL To: ALL Subject: Board Date & Time: 05/12/90 00:58:05 Message Number 4505 I don't know how it happened, somtehing is not right in aLTER rEALITY. Turtle is out of town till Sunday. So their is nothing I can do about the messages. I will do what I can to keep the board up and running. Your junior sysop want to be. * CRYSTAL * =========== From: JACK BURTON To: TURTLE Subject: A LONG LINE Date & Time: 05/12/90 01:36:00 Message Number 4506 If you don't have a VGA you can always read The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins but one has to wonder if you'll be able to check it out of any public library. =========== From: JACK BURTON To: YNGLING Subject: History Date & Time: 05/12/90 01:39:06 Message Number 4507 I was under the impression it was more of a miletary action, hopeing to cause wide-spread disruption in the South. =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: ALL Subject: last visitor Date & Time: 05/12/90 08:04:01 Message Number 4508 Last Visitor => s attempting to Hmm wonder what was going on here? - Corwyn =========== From: C.C.A. To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/12/90 10:01:49 Message Number 4509 Aren't you going to be suprised when you go to hell with him who you serve. =========== From: C.C.A. To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/12/90 10:05:22 Message Number 4510 I'm NOT miserable, but I do see the problems around me. =========== From: C.C.A. To: TURTLE Subject: Real Far Out Date & Time: 05/12/90 10:08:16 Message Number 4511 Apparently, you did not read the message I was responding to. Try again after you've read it. =========== From: SAURON To: TURTLE Subject: They hate... Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:16:50 Message Number 4512 Mohammadism (they hate it when you call it that) is even worse than Christianity, in that they OPENLY advocate wiping out non-beleivers. ...But hey - after all, they're only sand-niggers. Donthen went crazy when I used that term on his Board...what about you Turtle? { Andrew Dice Clay-my newest hero} =========== From: SAURON To: TURTLE Subject: Something else Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:21:27 Message Number 4513 (Shudder) It's "Hamburger Hell". =========== From: SAURON To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: What I'm doing. Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:23:54 Message Number 4514 If you get off practising evangeslism, which is exactly what you're doing...albeit surreptisiously. that's your concern. As an agnostic, I'll object my ass off. Okay? =========== From: SAURON To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: They hate... Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:27:08 Message Number 4515 To answer your question without doing seventeen paragraphs; How many sins have the Polynesians commited? =========== From: SAURON To: DONTHEN Subject: 286: Stone Age Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:32:56 Message Number 4516 Whatever you say, Watts. "Come to peace"? Doesn't sound like it. =========== From: SAURON To: KEN OBER Subject: You Dweeb... Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:37:20 Message Number 4517 I'm gonna let that pass, because I probably over-reacted to your last message. Sometimes I see challenges when there are none there. Say it once more though, and there'll be no mistake. =========== From: SAURON To: TURTLE Subject: menus Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:41:17 Message Number 4518 So what do you do when you're on the other end, ordering a meal? Say to the peon - "Repeat your entire bill of fare to me orally."? (Is this a non-sequitur?) =========== From: JONBOY To: DELPHI Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/12/90 18:56:09 Message Number 4519 Sorry - some "research is bound to be in error. The Hebrews relation- ship with Yahweh goes back to a time which is concurrent with Baal worship - I have heard the old argument about how the Jews gained their "theory" of monotheism from the Eygyptians and reject it on historical basis. Many of the kings et al mentioned in the early Hebrew texts have been verified by many many discoveries in ancient Babylon, Sumeria and point to the early accounts as fact. =========== From: JONBOY To: DONTHEN Subject: ack! Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:02:10 Message Number 4520 Well that explains why my Bill cat ascii signout got all screwed up. Not only ack! but phhht! too!!! =========== From: JONBOY To: RUFUS Subject: Deal Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:04:00 Message Number 4521 Checkmate made some really neat video stuff for the Apple's. By the way I was clearing out some of my stuff and came up with a box full of old NIBBLE, MICRO etc magazines plus some books on graphics etc for the Apple. I really hate to get rid of 'em but --- first come first served. Anyone interested leave mail and I will figure who to get to first. Turtle - I dug out the s-100 boards, an SBC-880 mothrboard, a 256k ram board, an s-100 motherboard and a clock calendar. Anyone interested real cheap! =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Mania Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:09:31 Message Number 4522 Well - in the middle ages and inquisition and all those other interestin "christian" times you have to understand that the entire concept of christianity and the church was contained in a power mad structure known to the world as the "holy catholic church". Some mighty fine reading is to be had on the power struggles and political wars within that establishment, I would just like to point out that they (the PEOPLE in charge tried to monoploize this structure by making it illegal under punishment of death to have or read a Bible. This is because if the common man knew the truth the system could never stand. Witness the reforms and new stance of the "new" catholic church since MArtin Luther and the other martyrs dragged the truth out of the papacy and into the light. To my mind it is a testement to the Word of God that people can still find meaning and belief even though it has been perverted, twisted and bent for the benefit of a few. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:18:44 Message Number 4523 Actually the concept of polytheistic and monotheistic is a bad topic. In most "polytheistic" religions there is still a head mutha whats in charge (Zeus, Odin, Yahweh) and in our own "mono"theistic religion we teach of a triune godhead and an abundance of supernatural creatures (cherubim, seraphim, angels). I am unaware of any desert religions other than Judaism and Islam (which are the SAME God and derive from the same roots so I will count as one) that teach montheism. I have a nagging thought about Australia but --- clue me in. It is indeed a strain to incorporate almost anything of paganism into Judaism. I will not count the fact that many Christian and Jewish festivals etc fall on traditional pagan holidays - that was simply good PR and people management for the early Christians that brought their religion to Europe and the British Isles. A non-simplistic JonBoy =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: IBMs Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:27:57 Message Number 4524 I work with 'em alot and agree. I have incredible problems doing the simplest I/O and it is a nightmare designing an interface card because of the mentioned hacks, cracks and bad decisions that are inherent to the PC family of computers. My biggest question is: What in the /hell/ is it doing /after/ it has identified the machine configuration that takes it so long before it can boot the OS. And don't tell me "memory management". I must admit though - there is a lot of software - and some of it good for the computers. The user interface on most of the new stuff is light years better than the old stuff (like Lotus menues - yeccchhhhh!). The best user interfaces are on the graphics stuff. =========== From: JONBOY To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:35:16 Message Number 4525 One could propose that merely "being" a rock or crystal enables it to "participate" in the ecosphere and thus "lives". However this type of argument is platonic and deals with his "forms" and my head hurts! I will bow out after loading Delphi's gun.... =========== From: JONBOY To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Real solutions Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:39:53 Message Number 4526 I /said/ my head hurtz! Ok ok - lemmee think I know that I have covered this one in the past ....... oh yeah! Now it also mentons the sons of god. And when Cain was driven away he took wives. Now where did they come from? I have heard arguments (but alas, have NOT followed them up) that MAN was created as stated. ADAM was the special case (a proto-Hebrew?) and it all fits (maybe - fingers crossed). =========== From: JONBOY To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Mania Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:43:41 Message Number 4527 Oh nonononononononononononononononononononononononnonononon NO! Only the power of the Holy Spirit can convict or convert. T'is merely our job to BE Christians and be vessels of the Holy Spirit. I got into a really weird conversation with a non-believer and a bottle of Tequila or something got involved. He was trying to explain how strange some of the Christian terminology sounds. He likened something like I just said to the scene in "Wrath of Kahn" where the bug was put in Chekov's ear. It was probably the funniest conversation I ever had as the person was not vicious - he simply put it forth as he perceived it. I get a real hoot out of the "soul saver" brigades. They are going out and "win souls for Christ". I love them for their zealousness but they /are/ mistaken if they think they can "save" anyone. =========== From: JONBOY To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: Mania Date & Time: 05/12/90 19:51:19 Message Number 4528 Most variations of that stuff involves a small sneaky nonsequitur hiding in the cracks. =========== From: BEATLE To: ALL Subject: protocensorship Date & Time: 05/12/90 21:25:20 Message Number 4529 If anyone is quite interested, someone over at NBC made a quite odd decision to let Andrew Dice Clay host "Saturday Night Live". It beats me why they think he can last 1 1/2 hours on network TV. He couldn' even last 1 1/2 minutes on MTV... so, this will be quite an odd thing to see. Anyway, the title of my message refers to my prediciment. My parents seem to think I shouldn't watch. I don't agree. That's censorship. =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: C.C.A. Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/13/90 04:53:06 Message Number 4530 Nope.. have you been having bad dreams lately.. sounds like a horror movie, not real life. Wake up dude, you're living in a fantasy land. I don't serve anybody, I don't believe in hell any more than Peter Pan, do you believe in Peter Pan, you seem pretty gullible about everything religous. Just watch out for Captain Hook, he'll get you if you believe in tinkerbell. Call me back when you start using your brain.. not spouting dogma. - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: C.C.A. Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/13/90 05:00:14 Message Number 4531 I see problems.. I think a lot of bad things happen in this world, but I'd never say "This miserable world we live in" as you did. I have faith in myself, and believe that I can always make my life better than death, I'm not in a hurry to get out of here. Sure, we're on a planet in the middle of nowhere, but have you seen an intergalactic taxi lately, make the best of it.. stretch your mind bud, think! - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: SAURON Subject: What I'm doing. Date & Time: 05/13/90 05:05:36 Message Number 4532 We're not practicing evangelism.. I happen to be mostly agnostic, partly athiest, we're talking about religion, not encouraging people to practice it. - Corwyn =========== From: CORWYN OF AMBER To: JONBOY Subject: IBMs Date & Time: 05/13/90 05:14:25 Message Number 4533 Boot times depend upon the machine, The ultralight will boot from it's RAM disk in about two seconds apparently. My Northgate does a page full of diagnostics (never had them report anything usefull) and then starts doing drive checks, In my case, most of my boot time is my drive controller checking drives. - Corwyn =========== From: DELPHI To: JONBOY Subject: godtalk Date & Time: 05/13/90 12:57:15 Message Number 4534 The fact Baal worship -- which followed goddess the original goddess worship, before he was a god or her consort or even existed -- existed concurrently with the development of Hebrew religion does not negate anything I've said. The scholars I read point out that Judiasm was perhaps the first attempt to destory the peaceful "milk and honey" existence of the matriarchy that took the form of a new religion. The purpose of this religion, this power-over rather that power-from- within, was for males to take dominance in the world, the birth of patriarchal power structure. It was only by co-opting the goddess worshiping religions, those that honored each individual and each living (or inanimate) part of the universe, that they could get people to give up their ties to goddess worship. This is not to say Judiaism was the only attempt. It was the most successful, leading also to Christianity and the worship of a man as god, which again was acceptable only when Mary was incorporated as a goddess-style figure. I realize these premises aren't easily accepted if you've always heard something else, but there are tremendous discoveries being made in these areas. When patriarchy wants to hold back information or alter the truth, it does a forceful job. Only when we refuse to accept patriarchal concepts as truth or the only reality do we open our eyes enough to see myriads of possibilities. =========== From: TURTLE To: DM2 Subject: hehehe Date & Time: 05/13/90 18:35:24 Message Number 4535 What, me sadistic? Naah...I'm an angel! O:) Honest...would an angel try to kid you? =========== From: TURTLE To: DELPHI Subject: IBMs Date & Time: 05/13/90 18:46:25 Message Number 4536 If your primary concern is the ability to exchange information with IBM machines, you'd be better off buying a null modem cable (about ten dollars) and using your terminal program to zap stuff across at 19,200 baud. It would probably be difficult to justify spending a fairly large amount of money for a not-terribly-good computer if all you're looking for is the capability to get files onto IBM disks, especially if the hardware and software you already have is perfectly servicable. =========== From: TURTLE To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: New new subject Date & Time: 05/13/90 18:50:57 Message Number 4537 Your comment about point-and-shoot file transfers/listings/whatever from a BBS ("...you can only do it if you have ANSI") isn't really true. RAS Z-nodes are capable of doing point-and-shoot operations on any terminal or computer that isn't a glass TTY by using remote TCAPS that are essentially nothing more than descriptors of the necessary control sequences to move the cursor, clear the screen, or whatever on the target terminal. When you log into the RAS, you run a program called TCSELECT that lists all the various terminals it knows and lets you pick one; if you don't see one you like, you use another program to tell the host computer what sorts of codes you want sent. It wouldn't be all that difficult to implement a similar scheme in the IBM world, by installing the termcap with a DEVICE specification if you want to set up your BBS as an RCP/M. If you don't need the ability to shell to DOS from the remote end and don't mind staying within the BBS program itself, implementation would become trivial. --An RAS Turtle =========== From: TURTLE To: BEATLE Subject: Something else Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:00:06 Message Number 4538 >...did you know you violated one of the basic rules of outlining?? Yes. =========== From: TURTLE To: CORWYN OF AMBER Subject: last visitor Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:03:31 Message Number 4539 Last Visitor => s attempting to Yes, folks, there is a problem here. The problem is a few spurious embedded codes in one of Delphi's message that cause the cursor here at this end to go zipping up to the top of the screen (yes, everything you people see on your ends, I also see here) and continue printing whatever it was printing when it hit the spurious watchamacallits. Anyway, well, the top of the screen is in more normal circumstances reserved for the status line, and the board keeps all sorts of neet information there, and, well, I'm sure you can piece the rest together... =========== From: TURTLE To: C.C.A. Subject: Waaaay far out Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:07:25 Message Number 4540 Sorry, guy, but I read all the messages in this thread, and your incoherent statements are still incoherent. I don't see your connection between people killing children and people believing they will live forever; perhaps it's just me. Can you try explaining it again, please? Humor me, I'm slow sometimes. =========== From: TURTLE To: SAURON Subject: They hate... Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:10:14 Message Number 4541 Interesting thing about Islam...the Koran specifically (and in no uncertain terms) states that (1) "people of the Book" (ie, Jews and Christians) have their own path to god and are not to be molested; and (2) conversion by force is wrong. Most good Muslims, of course, realize that these particular passages must have been written in error and seem more than eager to rectify the mix-up. =========== From: TURTLE To: SAURON Subject: menus Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:13:31 Message Number 4542 >So what do you do when you're on the other end, ordering a meal? I generally harrass the individual taking my order as much as is humanly possible. In fact, I think I can say that I have raised the practice of harrassing fast-food employees to a high art. For people with a sense of humor, this is not a problem; in fact, for some of 'em I'd suspect it's the high point of their day. For those without one: Well, anyone without a sense of humor deserves no better. >(Was that a non-sequitur?) Well, now that you mention it... (grin) --A harrasshole Turtle =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Deal Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:18:52 Message Number 4543 Actually, I'd probably be interested in all the S-100 hardware--what are you asking for the lot? Also, what (if anything) does it have in the way of technical specs, software, or other neat stuff like that? =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Mania Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:21:05 Message Number 4544 I dunno...people still find meaning and belief in Dianetics, and it /started out/ perverted, twisted, and bent for the benefit of a few... --A skeptical (and perverted, twisted, and bent) Turtle =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: More godtalk Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:26:43 Message Number 4545 In my present state of mind (exhausted and suffering from convention burnout) it's likely to be difficult to discuss monotheistic and polytheistic traditions coherently, so I won't. Perhaps after I've slept for a few days... =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: IBMs Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:30:06 Message Number 4546 For some obscure reason that's totally transparant to me, a number of PC-family computers seem to feel it's necessary to do an exhaustive memory test (walking bit left, walking bit right, bit interleave, etc, etc, etc, etc) every time they're turned on. Mind you, it isn't any more reliable than a simple write-read- invert-write-read test, but at least it (a) makes the boot ROMS longer; (b) takes forever; (c) effectively tests every memory address about a dozen or so times; and (d) is inherently silly since most RAM errors are thermal-intermittant and aren't going to show up when you first turn the *expletive* thing on. IBM: When we kill something, it *stays* dead (tm). =========== From: TURTLE To: BEATLE Subject: protocensorship Date & Time: 05/13/90 19:37:02 Message Number 4547 Censorship is the act of preventing someone from /saying/ something, not the act of preventing a person from /hearing/ it. If the network weren't carrying the show, then it would be censorship. Mind you, I don't subscribe to the philosophy that says parents have the right to control absolutely and arbitrarily everything thier children are exposed to, but it's important to get terminology straight. =========== From: KEN OBER To: CHIP P. UNICORN Subject: hhmmm... Date & Time: 05/13/90 21:32:09 Message Number 4548 You possible yonnedted right after someone hung up and you caught the tail-end of the reset sequence.... -Ken Ober- =========== From: YNGLING To: C.C.A. Subject: Gimme that.... Date & Time: 05/13/90 21:54:10 Message Number 4549 C.C.A.- To be honest, I find the fact that someone who recquires a crutch as enormous as yours to make it through the day and to justify his actions calling MY life a "crock of shit" to be absurd at best. The Yngling P.S. Ive been in a few jails and none of them were bad enough to make me worship the only forgotten Son. Maybe you should have chosen jail..... =========== From: YNGLING To: C.C.A. Subject: Real dips Date & Time: 05/13/90 21:59:53 Message Number 4550 So on the 6th day ghod created mindless beings which were mentally without form or void? Jeez, whatever happenned to the Christian concept of free will....I have two choices - abject slavery or eternal damnation? Hmmmm...what to choose? What to choose? The Yngling =========== From: YNGLING To: TURTLE Subject: Arrghhh Date & Time: 05/13/90 22:09:20 Message Number 4551 Turtle, I never thought Id say this, but, this latest message chain with Mr/Miss C.C.A. re: religion has made me long for those wonderful discussions about abortion we were having a while back. Can anyone, other than Chip, discuss the pro-Christianity side without falling back on the pablum-dogma crap they were spoon-fed as children in Sunday school? The Yngling (who has apparently been serving Satan for many moons without being aware of it - damn, I hate it when that happens!) ===========