Newsgroups: alt.sex.wizards,soc.couples,alt.romance
From: rcmarab@athena.mit.edu (He Whose Name Is Not Spoken)
Subject: Interracial Relationship Results
Date: 1 Feb 1993 19:57:48 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Message-ID: <1kjvbsINN8dl@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
Lines: 571

Due to server problems at MIT, I do not know if this posting ever made it to
where it was suppossed to go.  Here it is.  Send email or post your comments.

{Original Message Now Follows:}

Thank you to those who took the time to document their experiences with
interracial relationships and how interactions with friends, parents,
etc. were affected.  I've included several of the postings I've received
either by email or on the net, and I'll leave it to you to form your own
conclusions.  Basically, most people's experiences seem to have been
postive but I'm sure that those who feel such relationships are "wrong"
would, of couse, not have felt inclined to respond.  As I promised, I
have removed the usernames and any personal references from each account
to protect people's privacy.

My original posting, sent to alt.sex.wizards, soc.couples, and
soc.romance, mentioned something about stereotypes that threw a lot of
people off as to what my actual question was.  As a result, especially
in alt.sex.wizards, many people were confused about what exactly I was
looking for.  I hope that confusion was cleared up.

The response to this was overwhelming.  In addition to the personal
testaments, I got suggestions on books to read, a magazine subscription,
and news on a support group meeting somewhere in California (exact
location escapes me right now).  In fact, I went ahead and sent that
same posting to alt.sex, soc.men, soc.women, and alt.party to see what
other responses I get.  As I receive those, I'll be sure to pass them
along to you as well.

As one of the respondents said, 

> There should be a newsgroup alt.romance.inter-racial.  It's difficult
> to give an answere to this in under 20 pages. :-)

Hmm... Feel free to send email with your comments or questions.

------------------------------------ 

Although I'm normally more attracted to womem of my own race (I'm white)
I once had sex with a Korean girl who also was (and still is
fortunately) a close friend. I think for me it's just a matter of taste
and has nothing to do with races. I'd have trouble having sex with many
white girls too just becaus e they don't turn me on. That does not mean
I can not have a good relationship (as in friend) with them of course.
So, for me I just judge someone's attractiveness by looking at her,
without regard of race. It's just that I find white girls more
attractive most of the time (although I know quite a few exceptions :-).

-------------------------------------- 

i am a white canadian.  he is a black nigerian.  more info is available
if you are interested.  i will just say now that people pay lip service
to all people being one and stuff like that, and they claim to have
friends of all ethnic origins, but heaven help the person who entertains
the notion (let alone acts on it!) of being attracted to someone whose
skin color differs from yours.

--------------------------------------

it's the same as intraracial sex.

people are people.

-------------------------------------

Inter-racial?  In my experience, there have been skilled and unskilled,
regardless of skin colour.

Inter-cultural?  That's the real question.  Women from the Orient and
Africa seem to be so repressed, they simply don't believe they are
supposed to enjoy sex.  I dated a Japanese woman, once.  Let's just say
that in the time I knew her, she learned enough to intimidate the hell
out of the average Japanese male, and she would seem very demanding,
back home.

North American women are a pretty pathetic lot, all in all.  However,
most are willing to learn given a loving environment and one needs
lots of patience.  However, French-Canadian women are great!

Over in Europe, French women are fabulous.  However, the best, most
agressive and least inhibited are from Northern Europe.  Holland,
Northern Germany and Scandinavia seem to produce women with a real
love of sex and, I must admit, I've been quite intimidated, at times.

Just my 2 bits, worth.  

------------------------------------ 

Hi - I have had few sexual encounters with black men (I'm white female)
and++0mo st were positive.  One difference about black men I noticed was
that they're a bit rougher and less romantic when it comes to the sexual
act itself when compared to white men.  I hope this helps, let me know
if you have any other questions.

------------------------------------

I'm a 21 year old, half Mexican, half White female who is currently in
an interracial relationship.  Ever since I started dating (at 16) I've
been in interracial relationships.  I've been with the same guy for
almost 3 years now and we really haven't experienced any racial
problems.  I guess maybe because it's so common around here (Oakland).
Of course, we sometimes get those "looks" when we walk down the street
together or show affection for eachother in public, but we've never been
approached by anyone who dissapprovedof our relationship.

As far as my family goes....well, my dad didn't really approve of my
dating african-american males at first.  He use to have the attitude
about having a lot of black friends, but when one got with his daughter,
then it was a whole different situation.  I think maybe it had a little
to do with the "types" of guys I dated.  They didn't exactly treat me
how I should've been treated, but that goes for all races and my dad
just couldn't see that.  He stereotyped from the start.  Now, he's
really changed his ideas about it.  He absolutely loves my boyfriend,
they get along great.  (sometimes, he even picks HIS side if we have an
argument!!)  I think he realized that I wasn't going to change who I
date just to make him happy, so there was nothing else he could do but
accept it.  The rest of my family never had a problem with my dating
inter- racially.  My boyfriend has met several relatives of mine and
they all love him.

------------------------------------

I'm a white male who about 13 years ago became involved with a Black
girl and I'll "briefy" :-) give you some details.

She was the sister of a girl that I worked with and sparks flew as soon
as we saw each other. I had moved south from a nothern white suburb and
had had few experiences with black people mainly because of where I
lived.  I was in school and working at the time and where I worked I
made freinds with black people and never considered race an issue but I
was nieve and would learn the hard way that ignorance and bigotry from
both sides was and is very apparent.

After a long time I finally asked her out and she seemed pleasently
stunned. She was beautifull, funny, smart and I really felt that we could
have been headed to a long term relationship of even more.  I have to
admit that I had always sort of had a hidden fantasy about having sex
with a black girl but this went far beyond that.

My parents, athough they are not racists, didn't like it. They were very
nice to her and really seemed to like her but they felt I sould be
dating white girls and that I was asking for trouble. Her parents were
actually more receptive and her grandmother and I really hit it off. We
dated for several weeks and were totally blind as to what was happening
around us. There was a strong phsical attraction between us that I have
never felt since. There was also a true freindship .

Ironically many of the problems we would encounter were from Black
people not white people. The first incident was after we left a movie
and a group of black guys sort of harrassed us for a while. In
retrospect I really don't think they were doing anything more than
trying to scare us and having what they considered to be fun but we were
both young and it was very disturbing at the time. I started getting
phone calls at work saying the "Black Panthers" were going to get me if
I didn't stop seeing her (I would learn later that the Black Panthers no
longer existed ). One day when I was working, an older white women who I
didn't know asked me why with all the pretty white girls around did I
need to date a black girl, I was speachless. She and I were quite
affectionate to one another and one day after a long goodbye kiss a
customer compained to the manager about that white guy who likes black
girls.

In the end we both were too young to deal with the pitfalls that come
with interracial dating. We started noticing the stares and wondering if
we were being followed . I now know that most of our fears were
unfounded and we were imagining alot of things but we were 19 and 18
respectfully and at that age dealing with those kinds of things is just
tough. For a while we tried going out in public less but we both
realized that we coulden't go on the ways things were. She eventually
went away to school and we got together a few times while we were both
in school but we evetually grew apart and the last I heard from her she
was married and working as a building manager in Washington DC.

I still think of her often and wish I could have met her at a time when
I could have dealt with it better. I've since fallen in love and married
(a white girl) but she will always hold a special place with me.

------------------------------------

I am 19 years old and have been living the states ever since I was a
baby.  I am originally from India and have very orthodox parents.  They
believe in arrange marriages etc.  I have been dating a guy who is a
Mormon for the past year though out of the year he has been on his
mission for the past 5 months and still has 19 more left before he gets
back to see me again.  While he is on his mission he can not date other
girls and we are practically engaged.  My parents don't have the
knowledge of as to what has been going on.  His parents love the idea
that we want to get married when he returns from his mission.  His
community has accepted us as one.  Its the Indian community that has
been having a hard time to accept us and they have not been talking to
me ever since I started going out with him.  What I feel is the his
community accepts the relationship with a more open mind as compared to
mine.

------------------------------------

In my experience (she's from India, I'm caucasian), it hasn't been a
problem. Over the holidays we went and visited just about every family
member I have, and we experienced nothing out of the ordinary. Of
course, I'm fortunate in that my family is far from the uptight,
narrow-minded bigot type. Our ages may also have something to do with it
(late 20s - early 30s); when teenagers get involved interracially
parents sometimes see it as some sort of rebellion statement as opposed
to a real relationship.

There's a fairly decent book on this subject called "Different Worlds"
which I found at the local library. Although aimed at teenagers, it
gives a good idea of what life can be like for an interracial couple.

------------------------------------

Here are some comments from a "veteran":

My husband and I met 8 years ago while attending school in Chicago.  Far
from the "forbidden fruit" nonsense of "Jungle Fever", we were friends
first and discovered that we had a great deal in common.  Once we were
"officially" dating, my mother was very accepting and my father freaked.
Every time my mother or I mentioned [my boyfriend], he clammed up or
changed the subject.  This kind of surprised me, because if you looked
past the color difference, him and my father were alike in a lot of
ways.  We were engaged for a year before we told my parents (my brother
knew, as did our friends) and my dad's eyes bugged.  I don't recall that
he said much at the time.  The good news is that, as the wedding
approached, he came to terms with it, and we had a GORGEOUS wedding.
The two of them get along very well and do "guy stuff" (usually car
related) when we visit.  I think if the parent/child relationship is
basically solid, and the parents' attitudes toward other groups are not
too twisted, the parent will eventually come around.  In my father's
case, I think he was more worried about his daughter having a "hard
life" than anything else.  My mother's family was always pretty
accepting, but my father's brother feels this is a major blot upon the
family name and has kept it a secret from his adult children.  My
husband's family has also been accepting.

As far as our lives now, most of the time we do not even think about the
fact that there is something "different" about us.  We were even snubbed
by the Oprah Winfrey show--they were doing a show on "whether people
should marry their own kind" and rejected us because we didn't have
enough problems.  (But a Ukranian-Belgian couple apparently WAS
interesting enough!)

To add to the "lit review", there is a magazine called "Interrace" which
is available in some newsstands (or you can subscribe).

I wonder if there is enough interest in this subject to start a
newsgroup...this is really the first place I have seen it mentioned.

One final note...I think the best proof of how supportive my parents
have become is their WONDERFUL reaction to the news that we are
expecting our first child in July.

------------------------------------

My experience: I've dated black, jewish, and korean women. I am hispanic
(chicano).  I've had three long-term relationships (1+ years) with two
black women, one which lead to marriage and divorce.  No racial issues
involved in the divorce.  My parents are "inter-racial" too.  Mother is
very fair, blond from central Texas, and my father, very dark Yaqui
indian features, inches from the Mexican Border.

The Parents (Family) Issue: Depending on whether you value the opinions
of your family, this may or may not be an issue.  Since there are two
sets of families involved, chances are that this is an issue.  And
chances are that at least one side of the family will not be supportive.
And the true issue is support, not approval.  I've learned that
relationships that lead to marriage benefit from the support of both
families.  However it is not essential nor required; only "benefitial".

The Friends Issue: For the first time, both of you may see an uglier
side of your friends that you never saw before.  Luckily, my experience
(and from what I've observed of others) this is not a big deal.  No
point in having friends that are jerks anyway.

The Cultural Issue: Actually, this isn't much different than developing
the same skills as an international traveler would have.  You stop
pre-judging, you assimilate somethings and put up with others.  This is
no different with learning to deal with another person's personal habits
(toilet seat, dirty clothes, snoring, purchasing habits, etc.).

The Expectations Issue: This is how each of you perceives your role in a
deep relationship.  I suggest you figure this one out fast.

The Environment Issue: What part of the country are you from?  What part
of the city are you from?  Learn which streets are safer to walk down
together as a couple.  I've undergone teasing and taunting from each
race in some parts of Boston.  Society is getting better, but it isn't
perfect.

--------------------------------------

First of all, you have to put up with very different reactions from
friends.  NONE of my boyfriend's friends wanted to hang around us when
we were going out.  That effected our sex lifes indirectly.

Some things that directly effected sex were:

-- different cultural attitudes towards sex and different social
constructs meant our approaches to sex were very different.  In fact,
I'd say that's what lead to our breakup.  We just couldn't communicate
sexually in a way that we could both understand each other.  I think now
things would be different because we've both learned how to communicate
better.  However, now we are hundreds of miles apart.

--  Different skin texture.  It was *the* most amazing thing for me the
first time I ran my hands over his body.

--------------------------------------

Well with me it was very difficult.  I am black and my SO is Mexican.
As far as culture is concerned we are almost completely opposite.  I was
born and raised in So Central and went to Washington HS, one of the
rowdiest HS there, and she lived in the majority mexican populated
Southgate where she attended a private all girls HS.

I met her in college.  We have been together almost 3 yrs now (a few
break ups but still about 3 yrs)....

Well anyways, her parents hated the idea of it, they even wanted to beat
me up at first.  She has four BIG older brothers. She is the baby and
only girl, so that added to the frustrations.  Her mom speaks no english
and that made things difficult.

The first time I went over noone spoke to me, everyone just walked by me
and did not even acknowledge my existence, and then one day I felt
really bold so I when i came over i walked right up to her mom said HOLA
and kissed her right on the cheek with a gentle hug.  She freaked out
and turned red....

Later I found out that she had liked it... It made her feel special,
like a mom... so from then on everyone spoke to me and greeted me and I
kiss her mom all the time, and the times that I dont she lets me know
the next time I see her.  She speaks a little english now and I am
starting to understand a little spanish so things are evening out.

There have been some serious times though....  MY SO and I went to Magic
Mountain once recently and I got so many stairs and looks...  One young
black woman walked up to me in line and said, " YOU NEED KNOWLEDGE OF
SELF, MY BROTHER!!!!" real loud.  I had nothing to say, all I could do
was watch her walk away and think about how ignorant she was.  I am not
with my girl because I was looking for a mexican or anything, we met,
we talked, we got along, we got close... isn't that how it is supposed to
happen.... well it did....

--------------------------------------

Hmmm....Well, I for one am curious, too.  A couple months ago, i met
this girl through the net.  I'm in Canada, and she's in Pittsburg, I'm
Caucasian and she's Chinese.  Well, we got along great!  I, for one
don't have a problem with the interracial thing, and neither did she.
Actually, I don't think anyone I talked to thought anything of it,
including my roomates and my parents.  The only people who did have a
problem with it were her parents and they told her that they didn't
think it was a good thing for us to be getting involved.  So she
respects her parents a lot, and ..... (long story) ... now we're
friends.  Maybe this isn't what you were looking for but it's the only
one that I've had (yet).  As for interactions between the two of us, we
used the network talk program and were able to talk to each other for
hours (many) at a time.  I spent about 4 or 5 hours a day talking to
her, for about a month.  (Before exams).

I'm wondering what kind of reaction people will give regarding this as
it's something that I've been thinking *a lot* about ever since the
LJBF.

--------------------------------------

I'm Oriental, and my husband is Caucasian.  His parents have no problems
with me, but my parents just about threw a fit before kicking me out and
disowning me. Go figure.

Interestingly enough, I have a friend in the same situation (oriental
vs. caucasian), and her parents (well, ok -- her dad) disowned her too.

--------------------------------------

I am a white male, 24, and have been going steady with a Japanese girl,
28, for almost a year now. During this year she has spent about 7 weeks
with me at my parents house, and there have been no significant problems.

--------------------------------------

Not sure why I'm answering but since I've only dated black men and
eventually married a black man I figured I'd throw my 2 cents in.

I am a woman with a Puerto Rican mother and Italian/Irish father...
quite the mixture to start out. I was raised to be prejudiced, but when
I was old enough to realize everyone was the same, basically, things
changed. I dated both black and white men but always for some reason
felt (and still do) more attracted to black men. I honestly believe it's
because I grew up where there were more blacks than whites.

My parents had a hard time dealing with this 'problem' and I got all the
lectures of how I was 'lowering' myself and would probably end up being
beaten...it's funny, because all my sisters married white men and 3 out
of 4 ended their marriages because of physical abuse..  I am no longer
married but it was for different reasons. My mother got to the point
where she told me she had rather see me with a 'white bum' than a black
man...the man she complained about me seeing at this time is now a
policeman with a college education and also has a private pilots
license, so color doens't matter. My father wasn't any different, he
used to go and see my boyfriend's father and try to talk him into
speaking to his son so he would 'leave' me alone...they just didn't
realize we cared about each other... we dated 5 years and then grew
apart.

As for my friends, well, lost some, gained some, but those who were
geninuely my friends didn't care...it was my life...

When I first started dating black men and we were out somewhere I would
swear they were staring but I think it was me being uncomfortable.  We
did run into problems sometimes, but only one verbal confrontation was
when a group of rowdie, drunk white 'boys' called me a 'nigger lover.'
I just kept walking but it was hard for my boyfriend to keep quiet..even
though there was only 2 of us and about 6 of them!

I say nothing is different, black men talk the same, smell the same,
kiss the same...like that one person said 'we're all black when the
lights go out'.

I have a daughter as the result of my marriage...I won't care who she
marries or has a relationship with as long as she is treated with
respect and he is deserving of her.

--------------------------------------

I've been dating this sikh indian girl (asian, of course) for over 5
years.  This year we have plans on getting married since I will be done
with my education.  The only people who know about us, on her side of
the family, is her only sister and a cousin in California.
        
Telling a sikh girl's parents that the person she's going to marry is an
american is a death wish, for all involved.  I'm not sure her parents
are at all understanding, for if they were we would have told them by
now.
        
I guess the thing which bothers me the most is that her parents have
decided to come to america over 15 years ago.  They are not strong in
their religious beliefs, but they have very stong feelings on who their
daughter will marry.  Stubborn, yes.  Racist, yes.  Will they accept me,
probably not, but who knows.  If they do, they gain a son, else, they
lose a daughter.

--------------------------------------

I thought I'd send you my personal experience regarding interracial
relationships.  I am a white male and my wife is black (Carribean-Canadian).

We have been married for about six and a half years and we dated for
about nine months prior to getting married.  For the most part, there
really haven't been any problems due to any racial difference.  We
really don`t see the colour difference any more than two people with
different hair colour see a difference.  Yea, there is a difference, and
yea, we can make jokes with each other which really pokes fun at the
stereotypes rather than each other.

My parents didn't have any great problems with me dating a black girl
(she was not the first), but when it started to appear serious, my mother
became quite upset.  I found this very confusing as I had felt that my
father would be more inclined to have a problem with this and I had always
been closer to my mother.  Push came to shove when I wanted to take her
to my cousin's wedding.  The wedding was being held in in a small town
and most of the bride's family was from the small town and my mother felt
that this would cause a problem.  I agreed to attend the cerimony alone
and speak to my aunt and uncle about the situation and if they felt there
would be no problem, then she would accompany me to the reception.

As it turned out, I arrived at the church to see a black woman/white man
couple sitting on the bride's side of the church.  This made me very
furious, but I kept my cool.  Afterwards, I discussed this with my
relatives and they saw no reason why she should not come.  It seemed
that my mother had fears of how her family would react, but they are
very open minded.  She is just another member of the family now.

As for her parents, she has said that her mother doesn't like anybody,
so colour had nothing to do with it.  She really didn't get along with
her mother (her father lives in the US), as she was raised by her
grandmother until she was nine years old when she came to Canada to live
with her mother and meet her siblings for the first time.  Her
grandmother liked me from the first time we met, which probably upset
her mother even more.  Since moving out, she has got along much better
with her mother.

The only other thing I would like to comment on is the statement I have
heard several times (in magazine interviews or TV talk shows on the
topic of interracial relationships) and its,

"I don't have a problem with people dating/having sex/marrying if
they are of different races, but I don't think they should have children."

What a load of horseshit this is! (Please excuse my language)

I (we) just don't buy the arguement that it is *unfair* to the child, for
whatever reason such as:

        - the child will be teased at school because of it
          (the child WILL be teased at school for whatever reason
           can be found -- children are mean by nature.  The
           important thing is to build self-esteem in a child and
           prepare him/her for teasing from others for any reason)

        - the child will not have an understanding of his/her roots
          (he/she will have a *better* understanding of his/her
           roots because his/her roots are more diverse; this will
           lead to a child that has a better tolerance for those who
           are different)

        - the child will not know what he/she is
          (he/she should be raised to be proud of his/her mixed heritage;
           here in Canada, the long census forms now have a box for
           "other" which allows one to state what they consider their
           cultural/racial/ethnic background is)

I should add that we have a three and a half year old son.  He will be
starting school next fall and don't expect any problems.  There are many
mixed families here in Toronto, and I believe that there is a good
chance that a majority of the class could be mixed children.

One other note, although we have never run into a confrontation in
public, we do get occasional stares.  If we are in a shit-disturbing
mood, we might stare back or say something like, "Take a picture, it
lasts longer".  Usually we are in a joking mood and make fun of people
to ourselves (something we have to watch ourselves for now that we have
a "three-year-old instant playback machine").  For instance, if one of
us sees an older white person with a look that could perhaps be scorn
(for all we know, they always look that way) one of us might say to the
other, "Look at that!  My daughter has a difficult time finding a
boyfriend and there is a good looking white guy being wasted on a black
girl".  It's all in good fun, but it is the sort of thing that is unique
to a mixed relationship.  I mean, ours is like any other, but we can at
least enjoy some humour that others wouldn't understand.

--------------------------------------

Other than the fact that nearly every young woman who I have dated in
the last 2 years has been Asian (while I am Caucasian), mostly I hear
the ribbing "What's so bad about 'White' girls?" -- it sure can get to
you after a while....

--------------------------------------

I've dated two black women.  I met her sister (no friction--we got along
fine), but other than that, there were no family meetings involved.  My
dad had cautioned me a long time before, when I was dating a Roman
Catholic woman (our home religion was Presbyterianism), that it's risky
dating someone from another religion/race/subculture/ whatever because
different family systems/lifestyles/expectations can cause problems
eventually.  None of my friends gave a hoot (even my more conservative
ones), except for one friend who thought it was a bad idea to get mixed
up that intimately with a black woman (he didn't give any specifics).
Black men who saw us together often displayed disapproval or hostility,
or suspicion, which they expressed to the woman, not me.  Evidently the
black men felt more betrayed by the black woman who chooses a white man
than by the white man who poaches black women.  (so it's arguably more
sexist than racist.)  Both women were very attractive, if that matters.
No one ever caused real trouble for us--it was mostly just some strange
or hostile looks in limited cases.  Both relationships were in the North
Carolina area.


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